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	<title>Comments on: Lag Myths Dispelled</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/</link>
	<description>Socio-Economical Articles about the Second Life® world</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:57:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: livleigh</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-27109</link>
		<dc:creator>livleigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-27109</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a very nice article. It also gives me an indication on what is crippling the performance of sailboats and other vehicles nowadays. If scripts are always at the lowest priority, using the few left-over CPU-cycles on the server, that says it all.&lt;br&gt;SL is designed for us to hang around and dress like barbiedolls :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s a very nice article. It also gives me an indication on what is crippling the performance of sailboats and other vehicles nowadays. If scripts are always at the lowest priority, using the few left-over CPU-cycles on the server, that says it all.<br />SL is designed for us to hang around and dress like barbiedolls <img src='http://gwynethllewelyn.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: TigroSpottystripes Katsu</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-27099</link>
		<dc:creator>TigroSpottystripes Katsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-27099</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve noticed that particle count  alone seems to not always be the difference between a particle system that seems to lag down the client and one that does not</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#39;ve noticed that particle count  alone seems to not always be the difference between a particle system that seems to lag down the client and one that does not</p>
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		<title>By: Gwyneth Llewelyn</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-26878</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwyneth Llewelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-26878</guid>
		<description>An even more detailed (and slightly more recent) article of mine on lag is at &lt;a href=&quot;http://analutetia.com/blog/anatomy-of-lag/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ana Lutetia&#039;s blog&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An even more detailed (and slightly more recent) article of mine on lag is at <a href="http://analutetia.com/blog/anatomy-of-lag/" rel="nofollow">Ana Lutetia&#39;s blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Penguin Cheats</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-26877</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Penguin Cheats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 09:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-26877</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t spend the entire time at a show with your camera pointed at the stage -- at the very least, you have to find a place to park yourself first. It&#039;s a bad start to the event if you have to swim through terrible lag during that time period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#39;t spend the entire time at a show with your camera pointed at the stage &#8212; at the very least, you have to find a place to park yourself first. It&#39;s a bad start to the event if you have to swim through terrible lag during that time period.</p>
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		<title>By: Gwyneth Llewelyn</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-26697</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwyneth Llewelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 06:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-26697</guid>
		<description>An even more detailed (and slightly more recent) article of mine on lag is at &lt;a href=&quot;http://analutetia.com/blog/anatomy-of-lag/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ana Lutetia&#039;s blog&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An even more detailed (and slightly more recent) article of mine on lag is at <a href="http://analutetia.com/blog/anatomy-of-lag/" rel="nofollow">Ana Lutetia&#39;s blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Penguin Cheats</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-26695</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Penguin Cheats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-26695</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t spend the entire time at a show with your camera pointed at the stage -- at the very least, you have to find a place to park yourself first. It&#039;s a bad start to the event if you have to swim through terrible lag during that time period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#39;t spend the entire time at a show with your camera pointed at the stage &#8212; at the very least, you have to find a place to park yourself first. It&#39;s a bad start to the event if you have to swim through terrible lag during that time period.</p>
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		<title>By: dandellion Kimban</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-25643</link>
		<dc:creator>dandellion Kimban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-25643</guid>
		<description>true, there is a lot of factors in that equation. One more to add.... traffic between two users on the same (Earth) continent would be much faster than Europe-America for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>true, there is a lot of factors in that equation. One more to add&#8230;. traffic between two users on the same (Earth) continent would be much faster than Europe-America for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Gwyneth Llewelyn</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-25640</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwyneth Llewelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-25640</guid>
		<description>@Dandellion wellllll yes and no :) It really mostly depends on how large the residents&#039; own upstream pipe is. A typical example: throughout Europe, ADSL 24 Mbps usually has not more than 1 Mbps upstream. 100 avatars would at most provide 100 Mbps for P2P sharing. That&#039;s about what LL&#039;s sim servers ought to have anyway (possibly more, we don&#039;t know). In practice things are not so easy to calculate, as each resident&#039;s computer would have to open up to a hundred connections to each of the other residents in the same sim, to start texture sharing... and split their upstreaming pipe for all those uploads.

However, it&#039;s clear that this model would lower the burden on &lt;i&gt;Linden Lab&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; own servers and thus obviously reduce server-side lag to a degree. That would mostly mean that each resident logged to the sim would probably move around without any lag, while waiting for all the textures to rez properly (which would not depend on LL&#039;s servers any more). I guess that would be an advantage, of course. You&#039;d still need to download individually all those gigabytes of textures — just not from a single server.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dandellion wellllll yes and no <img src='http://gwynethllewelyn.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  It really mostly depends on how large the residents&#8217; own upstream pipe is. A typical example: throughout Europe, ADSL 24 Mbps usually has not more than 1 Mbps upstream. 100 avatars would at most provide 100 Mbps for P2P sharing. That&#8217;s about what LL&#8217;s sim servers ought to have anyway (possibly more, we don&#8217;t know). In practice things are not so easy to calculate, as each resident&#8217;s computer would have to open up to a hundred connections to each of the other residents in the same sim, to start texture sharing&#8230; and split their upstreaming pipe for all those uploads.</p>
<p>However, it&#8217;s clear that this model would lower the burden on <i>Linden Lab&#8217;s</i> own servers and thus obviously reduce server-side lag to a degree. That would mostly mean that each resident logged to the sim would probably move around without any lag, while waiting for all the textures to rez properly (which would not depend on LL&#8217;s servers any more). I guess that would be an advantage, of course. You&#8217;d still need to download individually all those gigabytes of textures — just not from a single server.</p>
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		<title>By: dandellion Kimban</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-25639</link>
		<dc:creator>dandellion Kimban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-25639</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the explanation. Now, only to think of the way to implant this into minds of attachment nazis. 

BTW, 
&lt;blockquote&gt;And where do all the textures come from? You guessed it — from the sim server. Which has to send those 300 MBytes to 100 avatars, or 30 GBytes total. So, on any busy event, we have the poor sim server struggling to push 30 GBytes downstream to all the unhappy and laggy avatars around. There is no way to avoid this step!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, there is a way. It would require reworking of the server structure from the scratch but if textures are shared &lt;a href=&quot;http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/centralized-networks-or-p2p&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;P2P between avatars on the sim&lt;/a&gt;, server load would be much lighter. Before IP guardians start screaming at me on the mere metioning that textures are stored locally, they are stored locally already. One can grab them anyway if want to. So it won&#039;t hurt IP rights more then they are in risk now. But it would make the world running much faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the explanation. Now, only to think of the way to implant this into minds of attachment nazis. </p>
<p>BTW, </p>
<blockquote><p>And where do all the textures come from? You guessed it — from the sim server. Which has to send those 300 MBytes to 100 avatars, or 30 GBytes total. So, on any busy event, we have the poor sim server struggling to push 30 GBytes downstream to all the unhappy and laggy avatars around. There is no way to avoid this step!</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, there is a way. It would require reworking of the server structure from the scratch but if textures are shared <a href="http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/centralized-networks-or-p2p" rel="nofollow">P2P between avatars on the sim</a>, server load would be much lighter. Before IP guardians start screaming at me on the mere metioning that textures are stored locally, they are stored locally already. One can grab them anyway if want to. So it won&#8217;t hurt IP rights more then they are in risk now. But it would make the world running much faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Gwyneth Llewelyn</title>
		<link>http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/comment-page-1/#comment-25637</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwyneth Llewelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2008/02/16/lag-myths-dispelled/#comment-25637</guid>
		<description>Dahlia, yes, indeed, avatars &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; a major source of lag, and always will be ;) That&#039;s one thing we won&#039;t ever be able to change...

Good point about in-world chat and old-style attachments with open listeners: these will &lt;i&gt;definitely&lt;/i&gt; place a burden on the sim. So a silent audience is a less laggy one :) The difference might not be &lt;i&gt;huge&lt;/i&gt;, but yes, there is still a difference.

You&#039;re also right about the animations, of course. In a 100-person sim, one person sitting down will force everybody else to download about 160 KB (I think that&#039;s the worst-case scenario) for that anim. Add a few more poses and it gets only worse. However, here is the good news: if people are allowed to &lt;i&gt;sit&lt;/i&gt; instead of standing, they will just force one download to everybody; while if they&#039;re standing, they will have at least usually 5 poses ;) Also, turning off an AO &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; teleporting in will do little difference (except for avatars arriving after you): if someone wishes to follow the &quot;attachment nazis&quot; rules, they ought to turn their AO offs &lt;i&gt;before&lt;/i&gt; teleporting... or it won&#039;t make any difference whatsoever.

In the year and so since this post, Mono has been introduced, which will run much faster (and lighter on the sim server), even more aggressive culling techniques have been employed, and a lot of improvement has been made in the way prims are fetched from the server, so the &quot;myths&quot; are even more &quot;mythological&quot; than before.

Then again, the point in my article was mostly to explain that there is server-side lag and client-side lag, and that what makes us to suffer most is client-side lag, specially if we cannot do much to reduce it.

Still, these remain true:

- avatars themselves are the major source of lag, even without attachments (both client-side and server-side)
- bad design (ie. too many and too big textures) on the environment are a secondary source of lag, but nevertheless quite an important one (mostly client-side though; the server will only start to get very very laggy if a lot of the environment is constantly moving or is set to physical)
- using badly scripted devices (like, for instance, non-Mono scripts; devices with open listeners; devices with short &quot;polling&quot; cycles, of which the major culprit is sadly the animation overrider, but if you&#039;re sitting down, this shouldn&#039;t make a huge difference; devices with an abuse of sensors like avatar radars; etc.) will cause &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; overload on the sim servers, but it will bear little influence on client-side lag: turning them off will &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; decrease client-side lag &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt;, although it might have a small influence on server-side lag.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dahlia, yes, indeed, avatars <i>are</i> a major source of lag, and always will be <img src='http://gwynethllewelyn.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  That&#8217;s one thing we won&#8217;t ever be able to change&#8230;</p>
<p>Good point about in-world chat and old-style attachments with open listeners: these will <i>definitely</i> place a burden on the sim. So a silent audience is a less laggy one <img src='http://gwynethllewelyn.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  The difference might not be <i>huge</i>, but yes, there is still a difference.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re also right about the animations, of course. In a 100-person sim, one person sitting down will force everybody else to download about 160 KB (I think that&#8217;s the worst-case scenario) for that anim. Add a few more poses and it gets only worse. However, here is the good news: if people are allowed to <i>sit</i> instead of standing, they will just force one download to everybody; while if they&#8217;re standing, they will have at least usually 5 poses <img src='http://gwynethllewelyn.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  Also, turning off an AO <i>after</i> teleporting in will do little difference (except for avatars arriving after you): if someone wishes to follow the &#8220;attachment nazis&#8221; rules, they ought to turn their AO offs <i>before</i> teleporting&#8230; or it won&#8217;t make any difference whatsoever.</p>
<p>In the year and so since this post, Mono has been introduced, which will run much faster (and lighter on the sim server), even more aggressive culling techniques have been employed, and a lot of improvement has been made in the way prims are fetched from the server, so the &#8220;myths&#8221; are even more &#8220;mythological&#8221; than before.</p>
<p>Then again, the point in my article was mostly to explain that there is server-side lag and client-side lag, and that what makes us to suffer most is client-side lag, specially if we cannot do much to reduce it.</p>
<p>Still, these remain true:</p>
<p>- avatars themselves are the major source of lag, even without attachments (both client-side and server-side)<br />
- bad design (ie. too many and too big textures) on the environment are a secondary source of lag, but nevertheless quite an important one (mostly client-side though; the server will only start to get very very laggy if a lot of the environment is constantly moving or is set to physical)<br />
- using badly scripted devices (like, for instance, non-Mono scripts; devices with open listeners; devices with short &#8220;polling&#8221; cycles, of which the major culprit is sadly the animation overrider, but if you&#8217;re sitting down, this shouldn&#8217;t make a huge difference; devices with an abuse of sensors like avatar radars; etc.) will cause <i>some</i> overload on the sim servers, but it will bear little influence on client-side lag: turning them off will <i>not</i> decrease client-side lag <i>at all</i>, although it might have a small influence on server-side lag.</p>
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