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Post-immersionism

Life in the Post-immersionist world

Hiro Pendragon has often claimed that he would never do business with someone with whom he hadn’t talked on the phone. This followed a series of developments in 2007 when it was clear that the level of mistrust due to anonymity (or pseudonymity, to be more correct) in Second Life had reached astonishing proportions, to the point where SL residents started to effectively engage in all sorts of scams and illegal activities and completely break trust. Linden Lab tried to introduce age validation and we were looking ahead for more similar steps to be taken to restrict fraud. The ban on banking was one of those steps.

In a smaller scale, fraud in the unregulated business environment is rampant. SL residents not only copy content, but they set up fraudulent companies (some in SL, a few even in RL!) engaged in all sort of scams. Or they do the oldest trick in the world, which is to engage in business (again, SL or RL) and default on payments, confident that they’re above being sued, although, as we know, that has happened as well in a few scattered cases. But in general, mistrust is the dominant force on the business side of Second Life, specially on the “real life” side of it.

Frauds are not new on the Internet, either, and the difficulties are the same: hard to verify the claims, transnational borders are way easy to cross to avoid lawsuits, and verifying people’s identities is way too hard. Governments could only protect their citizens saying that the same set of laws regulate virtual businesses. So if you’re caught, you’ll go to jail (or be subject to fines and lawsuits). The difficulty, of course, is “catching” the miscreants. Several countries in the world have deemed spamming to be illegal, but that didn’t make the world-wide spamming stop for a heartbeat. Allegedly, Nigeria’s suit of email scams already contributes positively to its GDP. The list of “Internet frauds” is vast, and, to a degree, completely unresearched, since it’s so hard to track down a scammer.

Business is about trust. The most important aspects of the “Trust Equation” on that linked article are credibility (ie. what people say and how they say it), reliability (ie. what they actually do) and intimacy (ie. the amount of information they feel comfortable with in sharing with others). This is naturally just one of many ways of defining business relationships, but, in general, I believe that all these aspects are important.

Any starting company has probably very low scores on all those aspects. But after some time they’ll start at least to improve one of the aspects: credibility, which tends to be spread around. Your potential partner might feel attracted to the perceived high value of credibility, and if they have a good experience with your reliability, they will trust that they have a solid relationship.

Intimacy is where certain (valuable) knowledge is shared, and here is where, for instance, we saw the collapse of the many banking systems in SL before the ban: they were all quite unwilling to reveal any data about how their systems actually worked, or what they were actually doing with all that money from investors. In a sense, one might blame the current financial crisis on the reverse aspect: banks lent money without getting any data from their clients, and thus when they suddenly found out that the majority of their clients were unable to pay for their loans, the world-wide banking system crashed. Or almost.

Even if you take a look at that article, you’ll see that there is quite a mix between “the business” and “the persons working in the business”. This tends to give a feeling that business trust relationships are both personal and institutional. Thus, if you wish to strike a deal with, say, Microsoft, you can trust the institution: they’re credible and reliable, and probably open enough to share information with you. But you’re also going to trust the person you’ll be contacting with: you expect that person to be credible, reliable, and intimate with you, too.

When we move over to business using telecommunications, some things necessarily change. Most of us won’t be able to physically visit Microsoft’s HQ in Redmond, WA; however, most of us will trust that it actually exists (at the very least, we can use Google Maps to see its location). We don’t ask anyone about Microsoft’s credibility and reliability directly — we can read all about it on the news, or, better, watching as the stocks go up, always a fine way to trust a company. So we’ll implicitly trust anyone from Microsoft that comes to offer us a deal — we expect such a trustworthy company to act sensibly and hire trustworthy employees as well.

However, the difference is that in most cases you will not have access to direct validation. You rely on indirect sources to verify Microsoft’s credibility and reliability (even if it’s just talking to a business acquaintance which can vouch for them). And unless flying to Redmond is an option, you’ll have to trust that the person who just walked into your office and offers you a business card from Microsoft actually is who she claims to be. You can most definitely check her up over the phone or by sending an email address and be satisfied with the answer — but the truth is that you have no way to make sure that the phone call wasn’t routed elsewhere and that a fake email server intercepted your message and someone in a basement answered it for you. Granted, when dealing with Microsoft, there are far more layers of checking up credentials, but I hope you see my point.

But the smaller the company, the harder it is to check those credentials. When I met one of the Lindens that happened to visit my country, and we went out for dinner, how could I validate that he was actually who he claimed to be? (I hope he’s not reading this!!) Well, actually, we exchanged emails, and I think he mentioned on his blog — written under his avatar’s name, of course — that he was going to visit. He also had my phone number. However, the truth is, how did he know that I was who I claimed to be? :) After all, I didn’t send him my ID card. This blog could have been written by a ghost writer (a few people humorously comment that they think that Extropia DaSilva is one of my alts, something that amuses us both), or even a series of ghost writers all writing under the same pseudonym. We could even share the same avatar account on Second Life, defeating LL’s request on the ToS not to share passwords. My company could be completely fake — after all, how many people know how to look companies up? All there is to “check” is a rather outdated WordPress blog, which suspiciously is hosted on the same virtual server than my personal blog (then again, a few millions are hosted by DreamHost) with a phone and an address. In fact, if someone goes to that physical address it’s highly likely that they’ll never meet any of us there — we’re all telecommuters most of the time and work from home. Most of the team does not live on the same country, or not even on the same continent. So… how does that relate to the equation of business trust?

In spite of a large amount of lack of physical validation, nevertheless, I might unashamedly boast that I have a certain degree of credibility and reliability. The more interesting aspect, of course, is that both of these are completely unrelated to my physical self but only to my digital self. (I’m actually used to it; since at least 1994 I’ve been engaged in similar ventures, where my physical self had little relevance to my credibility or reliability; Second Life is just the latest and greatest in digital communications) And obviously I behave in the same way when contacting new potential business partners: I check them up on LinkedIn or Plaxo first, to see what they have done, and how well known they are. Ironically, I trust their digital selves more than I trust their real, physical selves. In this day and age, if you don’t have anything about yourself on the Internet, how can I know if you are who you claim you are? :)

This inversion of the role of how to “trust” in a business environment is what I call post-immersionism. Intimacy comes from the willingness of a person’s digital self to provide data about themselves online — if you wish, to present a narration for their digital self that I can check up. If you have no digital self with a narration online, I will mistrust you. Why? Well, my question will be exactly the reverse one that Hiro asks: not why you don’t pick up the phone or meet me in the flesh, but why don’t you reveal anything about your digital self? If you’re not working hard on presenting yourself digitally, it means you have “something to hide”!…

More conservative business persons will obviously claim the reverse is true. Having a lunch with a client or driving to see their offices is the way to make business. It’s the old male stereotype of “feeling a man’s grip” (mostly crushing delicate bones in the process…) to gauge their “reputation”. Well, traditions are all very well but… why should a handshake be more “trustworthy” than a webpage showing an artist’s portfolio? When hiring an artist I don’t wish to evaluate how strong her handshake is, but how good she can develop a concept — and for that, I prefer to know in advance how good she is. I can do that by visiting her webpage, and read the comments, and see who links to her, and if there are any reviews from other professionals… a handshake definitely doesn’t convey any useful information.

Similarly, having a phone call to an obscure mobile phone is of little use to me. I remember dealing with AT&T, eons ago, at their offices in Spain. I was quite reluctant to talk with them over the phone, because all I had was a mobile phone for one of their reps. How could I look up a phone number and say: “this number belongs to an AT&T sales rep?” I could call their offices and ask if that phone number belonged to my rep, but the answer (at least back then) would be: “I’m sorry, but we cannot give out the personal mobile phone numbers of our employees”, which was a popular policy. So how did I know this guy was for real? Very simple: he had an AT&T email address. And once I could check that this email address actually worked, it was pretty sure I was “talking” to the right person. I trusted AT&T not to give out AT&T email addresses to anyone. So doing business over email was safe and had a higher degree of trust than over the phone, where I had no clue if I was talking to the right person.

What about personal relationships? Hiro Pendragon claimed that for personal relationships, a phone call is not important:

Personal – yes, sure. I have had and have and will continue to have meaningful personal relationships with friends whom I only chat with via text.

Although Hiro and I left the discussion at that, I believe that his theory is simple: the stakes are higher when talking business or talking friendship :) I never commented back to him on that old post of his, since personally I tend to value friends above business, but I’m sure that many feel otherwise. (After all, losing a friend just makes you sad; losing a business might mean no food, no heating, no home, and have your whole family suffering, so I guess that Hiro does have a point.)

As time goes by, and in spite of the criticism of the move towards the digital space having more pitfalls and traps than by doing business “in-the-flesh”, I believe that the dominant attitude will be to trust more and more what people do on the Internet (and write about themselves, and are peer-reviewed that way). We can get way more data out of the Internet about some person or some company than using any other method. In a sense, the “person” or “company” becomes the data we read about them on the Internet. And thus we’re back to the point where we started: once we cross back from the digital world into the physical world, and we begin to forge relationships on the physical world because of the ones we forged on the digital one, then we become post-immersionists: the digital world is where the focus is, the physical world — and what we do to establish relationships in the physical world — becomes less important. In a sense, post-immersionism is reverse augmentationism: the physical world becomes an extension of the digital one!

This might be not as far-fetched as it sounds. I’m pretty sure that almost everybody who is reading this long essay keeps in touch with the majority of their friends on a daily basis — online. They will also send many more emails to their business acquaintances than have physical meetings in the flesh — and some might even send more emails than make phone calls. Although we still enjoy the occasional special meeting with our friends when we go out with dinner with them or join them to do something together over the weekend, during the rest of the days, we’re not “forgetting” them, but send them text messages, add comments on their Facebook profiles, read their blogs, send them direct tweets, and generally keep in touch with them all the time — just not physically. Even in business we do the same — I might meet physically with my accountants once every quarter, but we exchange emails every day. My business partner in NY sometimes calls me up every other month or so, but we spend almost an hour together every day on emails and in-world meetings in Second Life. In a sense, even a “phone call” is the first step towards post-immersionism, since it replaces the physical self by “something else” which is not quite you (I get more angry on the phone than in the physical presence of someone, for instance!). While our society has fully embraced phone calls as being part of our digital self, and is slowly moving ahead to do the same with emails (specially once we can get rid of all those spammers), things like Group IM on MSN/Gtalk/Yahoo or even virtual worlds like Second Life are still too new for us to fully embrace it. But… it’ll come. Nobody in their right mind thought of sending a lawsuit to court by email in 1972 (when Internet email was just invented), but these days, in my country, the court doesn’t accept documents submitted any other way. You can’t even walk in there in person with your ID card and two witnesses and drop the document on a table. If it’s not sent by email and digitally signed, it’s not valid. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years courts will meet in Second Life and they won’t accept anyone physically entering a courtroom at all — I hardly believe that, but it might happen… — but, granted, it’s too soon.

The fun bit about post-immersionism is that at some point we’ll all be post-immersionists and the term will totally lose its meaning. It’s just controversial right now for a limited time :)  

gwynwirecard

A note on the photo above. Wirecard is a German bank which has had a virtual presence in Second Life for quite a while. They couldn’t care less if they emit a perfectly valid Mastercard, usable anywhere, with your avatar name (they don’t provide credit, just debit cards). When I showed this card to a friend of mine, he just commented: “now I totally lost the remaining trust I had in the banking system”. The amusing bit, of course, is that you have no way to know if that picture is real or a forgery, since it was clearly photoshopped to blur the numbers (so I could presumably add the fake name on it, too), and you have no way to tell if it’s really me holding the card, or if that’s my real computer. Post-immersionists won’t care, so long as I’m able to pay for what I buy with this card!

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Comments

  1. Dale Innis January 10, 2009

    Very interesting and thoughtful post! A couple of notes: I don’t think we have enough data to support the “generally” in “Current-generation SL residents generally scorn self-proclaimed immersionists by considering them merely escapist”. Most brand-new residents don’t even know what “immersionist” means, and I would imagine that more seasoned current-generation residents are spread along the imm-aug continuum just like older generations are. Certainly at least a few residents, of whatever generation, think the imms are silly, and say so in their weblogs or in chat or whatever, but I think it’s reasonably likely that these are the exception, not the rule. Most residents “get” the imm end of the continuum, although as you say most people are themselves somewhere nearer the middle.

    I also wouldn’t say that atomic selves differ from digital selves in that the latter are socially constructed, and the former are not. You will find lots of writers making the case that atomic selves are socially constructed also. Sure you *could* spend your whole atomic life alone on a mountaintop and still have some rudimentary “self”, but you could also spend your whole WoW life as a level 1 character just sitting behind a tree, and still have a rudimentary “self”. In both the atomic and digital worlds, a minimal “self” doesn’t require social interaction, but a full-blown normal one does.

    I like “post-immersionism”! I first encountered this sort of notion in the “Metaverse Roadmap Overview”, which indirectly inspired my story “Meaties”:

    http://daleinnis.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/meaties/

    whose main character certainly deserves to be labeled “Post-immersionist”. Even if he may be taking it a bit too far. :)

  2. Ranma Tardis January 11, 2009

    This is interesting though a bit “long winded”. I think it over analyzes the situation and makes things too complex. I have discovered that my virtual self is the same as my real self. I admit that my second life self has not grown old with the years and is not nearly as ugly as my real life self ;)
    I am still not sure what sort of real life business one can conduct in second life that can not be done in real life. What does Toyota gain by a island in second life? I am not going to buy a 25,000 dollar car by visiting a sim in second life or by a web site alone. I ended up buying a Honda Civic EXL.
    Like a lot of things in life Second Life is limited by positive identification. You can call the public line for Linden Labs and get a description of your contact and see a government identification. The problem with the internet is that anyone can be behind an avatar. In my government position I use my cac card and pin number. Sometimes I need to provide a fingerprint. I do not trust second life when it comes to real money. Who is the person behind a Avatar really?

  3. Extropia DaSilva January 11, 2009

    ‘I have discovered that my virtual self is the same as my real self.’

    Can you fly like superman in RL? Can you pop out of existence in one location, only to reappear somewhere else in RL? Can you cause geometric shapes to appear out of nowhere in RL? No you cannot, but I bet that you regularly do at least one of the above in SL. So that, as well as your admission that ‘my second life self has not grown old with the years and is not nearly as ugly as my real life self’, hardly lends weight to your assurance ‘you’ are the same in RL.

    ‘The problem with the internet is that anyone can be behind an avatar.’

    This is as much a promise as it is a problem. For people in RL who have created ‘digital people’ in online worlds, it offers the possibility of indefinite life. Why? Because a digital person’s existence need not be tied exclusively to one specific RL person, so that when that person dies the digital person no longer exists. No, ANY person who could roleplay the part would serve as a suitable information processor creating the patterns that others engaged in online worlds identifty as that person.

    ‘Who is the person behind a Avatar really?’

    An irrelevant question for digital people. All that matters is that the patterns of information describing that person’s distinguishing traits are propperly processed. WHO or WHAT is doing that processing is of no concern, since they are merely part of the system that allows digital people to exist. (Of course, this only applies to digital people. Not everyone in SL sees their avatar as such).

    ‘When on the telephone, we automatically adopt a certain number of rules and procedures, and even a different language. We start by saying “Hello?”’.

    Yes, now we do but the propper way to begin a telephone conversation was debated for decades. Alexander Graham Bell preferred ‘ahoy’. Other greetings included ‘are you there?’, ‘what is wanted?’ and ‘are you ready to talk’.

    The greeting ‘hello’ was chosen as much for its anonymity as for its freindliness. The fears you sometimes see expressed over the Internet and its ability to give strangers access to our private lives and our children are nothing new. Such fears were raised over raised over the telephone, with one newspaper going as far as saying that anyone able to phone anyone else was ‘to be feared by the sane and sensible person’.

    In 1882, the German post office ran a conference (to which only chief executive officers were invited), the topic of which was ‘how not to be afraid of the telephone’. The conference was never held, because the CEOs were insulted by the suggestion that they would ever use a telephone. That was a job for underlings!

    Which brings me to…

    ‘This form of positive escapism is obviously always highly regarded, and rarely the word “escapism” is used: we’re concentrated in performing a musical piece, we’re enthralled by listening to a performance, we’re absorbed by a good book or a good movie.’

    Again, this is only true NOW. Just like the telephone, one can find negative criticisms and fears raised about both ‘movies’ and ‘music’. For instance, about 80 years ago a French Novelist called Georges Duhamel described cinema as, ‘a pasttime of illiterate, wretched creatures who are stupified by their daily jobs, a machine of mindlessness and disolution’. And then there was Claude Debussy who wrote (I do not know when), ‘should we not fear this domestication of sound, this magic that anyone can bring from a disk at will? Will it not bring to waste the mysterious force of an art which one might have thought indestructable?’

    ‘I also wouldn’t say that atomic selves differ from digital selves in that the latter are socially constructed, and the former are not. You will find lots of writers making the case that atomic selves are socially constructed also.’

    Yes Dale. I believe this was the main principle of ‘post modernism’, ‘poststrucuralism’ and ‘deconstructionism’, according to which objectivity is impossible, meaning is self-contradictary and reality is socially constructed.

  4. Extropia DaSilva January 11, 2009

    ‘The concept of “existence” is a complex one. There is no doubt that — barring a few ‘bots — we all exist independently of Second Life, or of being logged in or not. This follows from the fact that our physical selves are not constrained to exist only when interacting with others, but that it exists in spite of those interactions. So we cannot say that when Second Life goes down, we cease to exist.

    However, we can make that assumption for the digital self. It seems clear that when Second Life is down, the digital selves cannot interact with each other, and thus, by definition, they cease to exist.’

    Ah, well digital people can take advantage of a phenomena known as ‘permanent person presence’. This refers to the belief that somebody you know who is not currently in your visual or audio field has not ceased to exist. Rather, they are ‘somewhere’ doing ‘something’. It is this belief that compells so many of us to state that our loved ones’ ‘self’ somehow survives death and that our dearly departed are ‘somewhere’ doing ‘something’. It also means my friends believe I must be ‘somewhere’ doing ‘something’ even when my primary has finished roleplaying me.

    But, if my friends believe that, then in a way I DO continue to exist after ‘I’ log off. This is because the pattern known as ‘I’ is as much a social construct as it is a personal one. This notion was brilliantly captured in an abstract painting called ‘I at the Centre’ by David Oleson. Doug Hofstadter’s description of it is hard to beat:

    ‘Here one sees a metaphorical individual at the centre, whose shape (the letter ‘I’) is a consequence of the shapes of its neighbours. Their shapes, likewise, are consequences of their neighbours, and so on. As one drifts out from the periphery of the design, the shapes gradually become more and more different from each other. What a wonderful visual metaphore for how we are all determined by people to whom we are close, especially to whom we are closest!’

    Gwyn also correctly pointed out that the web of social contacts surrounding each avatar need not consist only of inworld activity but may also include blogs and forum posts and emails and Googlechat. All of that contributes to one’s ‘ubuntu web’, aka the social network out of which the digital person’s existence truly emerges.

    As for, ‘our physical selves are not constrained to exist only when interacting with others, but that it exists in spite of those interactions’, that is only true in the short to medium term. If you go back to a certain time before any one person was born, you will find a rather intimate interaction between two people subsequently to be known as ‘mum’ and ‘dad’ which was pretty crucial. And it is well known that a person kept in solitary confinement for long enough will be adversely affected by lack of engagement with others, and loose a part of their mind and sense of reality as a result.

  5. Gwyneth Llewelyn January 11, 2009

    @Extie, yes, well, humans are a gregarious species, so the self is definitely a social construction, or at least a big part of it. The authors of the quoted paper are a bit more careful when talking about the physical self, since it’s obvious that you can live all your life as a hermit and most of them don’t “lose their minds” but still have a sense of self ;) Nevertheless, hermits are an exception to the usually gregarious nature of human beings.

    On the other hand, there is no digital self without online interaction.

    @Ranma, your “discovery” of your virtual self being exactly the same as your physical self is one that only you can make; for everybody else, they’re different. That’s why the authors of the article define the digital self not as something you define, but what others define. I also claim the same thing as you, of course, but my claims are futile — my digital self is on other people’s minds, not in mine. And this is the crucial difference between both. It goes beyond visual appearance (which, anyway, is always different just because a pixel-based environment depicts images differently than a atom-based environment).

    As for the interest of real business in Second Life, the list is way too long for a simple comment :) and I’d certainly suggest the many sites dedicated to that — Kzero’s is a pretty good start. Just remember that 15 years ago nobody would believe that people would buy clothes or vegetables via the Web, because “watching a picture” is not the same as feeling the texture of a dress or smelling the freshness of vegetables. Today, online shopping is widespread, and companies have no problem in making sales via the Web. Then again, brand awareness and community-building are two good starting points for companies to be in Second Life, specially the later: companies like Harley-Davidson or even Apple mostly sell through building a strongly-knitted group of individuals who are solid evangelists of their products and naturally come together to discuss it. This is called the “Culting of Brands” by author Douglas Atkin, who never mentions Second Life in his book, but what he explains definitely is a perfect guideline for companies to “do business” in Second Life.

    You also mention the issues about validation, identification, and Government’s typical obsession about making sure that a person is what they claim to be. This is mostly a 20th century obsession, where old-fashioned concepts like ‘honour’ have faded into the background. Remember, fraudsters and scammers also have ID cards, and when transacting with anyone, even in the flesh, no amount of IDs or fingerprints or DNA samples will tell me if I can trust the person sitting in the meeting room. Likewise, just because I’m willing to show my ID card or passport to my lover, it doesn’t make me automatically a decent, honest, faithful partner that they can trust to raise children and give them a good education. Replacing “validation of identity” by values like honesty, honour, faithfulness, loyalty, is sadly an illusion created by the post-WWII society which has mostly abolished those values. A person does not become “more honest” just because they are able to provide an ID card. And there are other issues, too. I remember once trying to sell a company to someone with a very solid business reputation whom I had the pleasure to have met for over a decade; and I was given a check from him for a huge amount of money (millions of dollars) to buy that company. I certainly met that person several times over the years in the flesh, had copies of their ID cards, and a way to validate the legally-binding signature on the check. 24 hours later I was talking to his family at the waiting room of a mental institution, where he had just been sedated after a huge mental breakdown and a collapse due to stress. So… what good was that signature on the check? What good were all the “proofs” I had of having made a successful, honest business transaction? I did not see inside that person’s mind to see how it worked, and, ultimately, that’s what counts (if I had sued — which I hadn’t — any lawyer would easily claim that the person was not mentally stable to sign checks and the court would obviously rule against me).

    On the Internet, millions of transactions for billions of dollars happen every day without people meeting in the flesh. They occur on Amazon or eBay or on several other places, from people selling software, web hosting, or clothes, groceries, or even cars and houses. Millions of transactions! And you hardly ever meet those people or see their ID cards. On the other hand, in almost all these cases, things like reliability, credibility, and intimacy — the core of business trust — still occur, and often to a degree that is impossible in the non-digital world. Just because you don’t trust people to do business over the Internet, millions nevertheless do it every day.

    @Dale, I agree that “new residents” tend to ignore those labels, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist ;) In fact, it’s absolutely unsurprising that when they finally hear about them they find the concept preposterous. That’s fine: nobody, I think, is claiming that everybody who becomes a SL resident has to become a philosopher, too :) Perhaps the difference between the early generation of SL residents and the current one is that there was a higher number of amateur thinkers in the past who thought about what virtual worlds would do to transform society and mindsets (hopefully, “improving human condition” that way, as LL says in their mission…). These days? Oh sure — that has become the object of serious research in universities, and it’s there where you’ll see people discussing these and similar subjects. Not by watching newbies popping in on the Welcome Areas :) SL, overall, has become professional in all areas, the number of amateurs still around doing things is slowly fading away :)

    Ah, and lovely short story, I had missed it, and you’re right, that’s pretty much a good vision of the future :) )))

  6. Ranma Tardis January 11, 2009

    I have never given the subject a lot of thought.
    Of course my digital self is different in appearance to my real life self. A real life picture of myself yesterday is not the same picture as today. The important things, my speech, mannerisms, etc are being sent from me to this program or better yet set of programs on multiple servers. My second life self does not really do anything it only appears to be doing something. Nothing is made and these places exist only in our minds. Computers even today are just a set of on/off switches. There is no mystery about them only the personification we give them.
    My sl avatar can not exist without me or someone else logging into the account. (bots do not count being a computer program)I exist without the help of a second life avatar. To me second life has no mystery and is no more than a web page with chat channels. I interact with real people through this communication device. I see second life as a phase in the development of communications. When the Linden Labs shuts off its computers for the final time there will be nothing left of our second lives but our memories.
    As for Immersion we are not there yet. When we can transfer our thoughts and memories directly into a different object/ a living object it will be true. Reading material, I suggest the works of Peter F Hamilton. I like the concept of edenism *huge grin!*
    http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/peter-f-hamilton/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edenist
    If you do not like my writing please try not to be so sensitive. These are my thoughts on the subject and am no authority on these subjects. I am just a single person and “crushing” my writing does not erase them.

  7. Gwyneth Llewelyn January 11, 2009

    <– LOVES Peter F Hamilton, one of my favourite space opera authors ever, and I’d love to see Peter come to SL and talk to us about his fascinating ideas — Edenism is definitely one of those ;)

  8. Extropia DaSilva January 11, 2009

    ‘If you do not like my writing please try not to be so sensitive. These are my thoughts on the subject and am no authority on these subjects. I am just a single person and “crushing” my writing does not erase them.’

    Rest assured that there is no need to crush your ideas, since everything you have said is very much compatible with what is possible using the technology of SL. It most certainly can be used as a means of communication between others and what you perceive to be indistinguishable from your ‘real’ self. Equally, SL lends itself to roleplaying and the creation of fictional characters. Do we are argue over whether or not the novel is a more propper use of written language than the autobiography? No, we recognise both as legitimate uses of the technology. We should do the same for your POV and mine.

  9. Ranma Tardis January 11, 2009

    I have no problem with role playing. I use to play Paronia and Traveller as a college student with just pen paper and dice.
    The technology is still not ready for true Immersion. I have found the Linden Labs program to be quirky, ram intensive, likely to drop conductivity without notice and the staff to becoming increasing RUDE and INDIFFERENT to their customers. Lately I have become more and more indifferent to it. I have started the process of cashing out all that can be sold for cash. Think this is the real reason I left the Confederation of Democratic Sims. I just do not wish to put more money toward bad. Oh I am being rude again and avoided my answer to you. I found your answer to be very interesting and am still giving it and the article some thought. It is a lot to digest at once!
    Gwen do you think, we can get Peter F Hamilton to come online? I LOVED his stories since they were done with a British point of view. It has given me some insight about my British cousins *grins*
    When I grow up I want to be an Edenist! *super special wide grin!!*

  10. Extropia DaSilva January 12, 2009

    ‘As for Immersion we are not there yet. When we can transfer our thoughts and memories directly into a different object/ a living object it will be true.’

    It is certainly true that SL does not offer the kind of immersion one would expect of VR as it is presented in movies like ‘The Matrix’ and books like ‘Neuromancer’. However, several experiments from cognitive neuroscience and psychology suggest that what we have now may be more immersive than you might suppose.

    1: THE BASKETBALL GAME AND THE GORILLA.

    This experiment demonstrates ‘Inattentional Blindness’. People are shown a video of two teams, each throwing a baskbetball among themselves. The observers are asked to count how many times the ball is passed by one team, while ignoring passes made by the other.

    After the video ends, people are asked ‘did you see the gorilla?’. About half say ‘no’. Amazingly, these people fail to notice a guy in an ape costume, walking right across the scene and even stopping to thump his chest! So absorbed were they in the counting task, they did not see the gorilla even though they were looking directly at it.

    So, what about SL/RL? Sure, SL only exists inside the frame of your monitor. But, if your attention is focused on what is happening within the monitor, surely it must be the case that the ‘real world’ out on the periphery of your vision essentially stops existing, thanks to inattentional blindness.

    2: THE MONKEY AND THE RAKE.

    Monkeys (and presumably, humans) have a region of the brain called the parietal cortex. This controls actions of reaching and grasping, and neurons in this region become active when anything comes near the hand.

    If you give a monkey a rake, it does not take long before the region activates whenever something comes close to the end of the rake. As far as the parietal lobe is concerned, the rake has become an extension of the monkey’s arm.

    As you control your avatar and move it around inworld, it may well be the case that it too becomes incorporated into your body map, essentially making it a part of your body.

    3: READ ‘OLD’, BE ‘OLD’.

    In this experiment from social psychology, people are supposedly tested on their ability to turn random words into sentences. In reality, most of the words relate to stereotypes of elderly people and the experiment’s purpose is to show how people’s behaviour changes when primed with such stereotypes. Sure enough, students primed with the ‘elderly’ words walk away behaving like elderly people, walking more slowly and stuff like that. They don’t even know they are doing it.

    So, what happens if you spend a long time roleplaying a character, responding to people’s reactions to that character, rather than yourself? Is it not likely that you will become primed to act out the personae of that character, and maybe not even realise you are doing so?

    4: THE SKIN YOU ARE IN.

    In this one, people were randomly assigned one of two types of avatar. One type was an attractive avvie, and the other was an ugly avvie. It was noticed that, when engaging in social situations, people who had attractive avvies behaved with more confidence than the ‘uglies’. For instance, the uglies tended to stand further away from people they were chatting to, compared to the ‘beauties’. This was true, regardless of how shy or confident the ‘real life’ person happened to be.

    I should point out that participants were wearing VR helmets and so fully immersed (in a visual sense, at least) in the computer-generated environment. But they were only given 5 minutes in which to familiarise themselves with their new appearance. Most of us do not use VR headgear when logged in to Sl, of course, but we might spend years interacting with other people while (perhaps) embodying an avvie unlike our physical appearance. I dare say we naturally conform to whatever levels of confidence or shyness are appropriate, given our avatar’s physical looks.

    While logged into SL, it is probably the case that all four happen simultaneously. You have inattentional blindness of the ‘real world’ on the periphery of your vision while focusing attention on the world within your monitor, your avatar becomes incorporated into your body map, essentially making it part of your self, you are reading people’s responses to your appearance and behaviour, and so being primed to take on certain stereotypes and you have spent enough time embodying your avvie to slip quickly and comfortably into a mindset appropriate for your virtual presence.

    All in all, I think these facts of psychology and brain science strongly suggest that ‘immersion’ does happen, even without jacking in ala The Matrix:)

  11. dandellion Kimban January 12, 2009

    It’s good to see the light on the end of the tunnel. Finally that silly imm/aug story will end. Bennetsen’s article brought more harm than good, but that’s the way things usually go.

  12. Dale Innis January 12, 2009

    @Extropia: “Yes Dale. I believe this was the main principle of ‘post modernism’, ‘poststrucuralism’ and ‘deconstructionism’, according to which objectivity is impossible, meaning is self-contradictary and reality is socially constructed.” Well, yeah, but that’s taking it a bit too far! It’s possible to think of the atomic self as socially constructed without thinking all that other self-sabotaging stuff. One can be Mead without being Derrida. :)

    @Gwyn: “On the other hand, there is no digital self without online interaction.” That’s exactly what I’m questioning. I think you can have just as much of a solitary digital self, just sitting behind that rock in Coldridge Valley as a level 1 Gnome Rogue and doing nothing, as you can a solitary atomic self. I don’t see a difference in kind here at all.

    Also, “I agree that “new residents” tend to ignore those labels, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist In fact, it’s absolutely unsurprising that when they finally hear about them they find the concept preposterous.” Again, I don’t think we actually know that “they find the concept preposterous” to any greater degree than previous generations. We may sort of have a gut feeling that way; on the other hand there are *lots* of current-generation residents over at the imm end of the spectrum, and our gut feeling could well be wrong about the general trend. I don’t think we want to start assuming that the current generation of residents is all bunch up down at the aug end; I don’t think that’s true.

    (Note that I’m only talking about the parts of your posting that I disagree with. Overall I think it’s useful and insightful. And I’m glad you liked the story. :) )

    (Oh, and I seem to be posting here successfully now! Before when the comments were never appearing I was authenticating via http://daleinniss.wordpress.com/ and OpenID; maybe there’s something wrong with that channel…)

  13. Angel Sunset January 14, 2009

    A really good, in-depth ( with Extropia’s complements, and the surrounding discussion) look at identity in SL in particular, and virtual environments as a whole.

    I have always defined my character in virtual worlds by creating an avatar, as far as possible, that fits an ideal of how I will react to the world. This does not stop my RL personality from intruding, but helps me to Be who I Am in the virtuial environment. In that sense, I agree that I do not have to interact to Be in a virtual world, at least not with the residents. I DO have to engage myself as (not WITH) the avatar, in order not to trivialise the world experience.

    The division I see, which is as valid for me in RL as in SL or other worlds, is a) who I present myself as, as a visible living Body, and b) what I do as this visible living Body.

    For me the difference between my RL existence and the SL or virtual existence, is just the medium. I am still ME in both – but the Me I am is the manifestation of my Being as approriate to the world I am in.

    I guess I am a pure escapist – in RL I escape into the physical world (out of my Real Universe, the mind), in SL I escape into the LL world (out of my Real Universe, the mind).

  14. Cheyenne Palisades January 23, 2009

    Great post, Gwyn!

    I’m convinced I sometimes see the “real world” pixellate. I suspect it too is virtual.

  15. Singles April 13, 2010

    Ladies, your lifestyle is in danger, and something needs to be done.
    Singles

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