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07 Jan

Digital People and Anonymous Avatars by Extropia DaSilva

This time, we get a short essay from Extropia DaSilva… but one that is quite close to my heart :) Enjoy! — Gwyn

“Trussssst in me/ Jusssst in me”- Ka from Disney’s ‘Jungle Book’.

When H+ Magazine published Stephen Cobb’s article ‘Real Discrimination Against Digital People’, someone wrote the following response:

‘I fully respect online personas, but expecting me to implicitly trust anonymous avatars is pushing it’.

Many people seem to think that ‘digital people’ and ‘anonymous avatars’ are one and the same thing. But this is just not true.

An anonymous avatar is one that A) carries no real life identification and B) has built up no in-world reputation.

In stark contrast, a digital person is somebody that HAS built up an inworld reputation. A digital person considers his or her identity to come entirely from how he or she is perceived by the online communities they are a part of. From this fact, we can take the logical step to the assertion that a digital person wants to become as familiar a figure in their online communities as possible. After all, the more people become familiar with the name and personality of ’Extropia DaSilva,’ the more ‘real’ that digital person becomes. We can also logically assume that a digital person seeks not just wide familiarity, but a POSITIVE reputation within online communities. This is because if you gain a BAD reputation, you increase your chances of being ejected. For a digital person, having your account suspended or cancelled is almost a fate worse than death!

This obviously sets them apart from griefers. Those are people who want a BAD reputation, and who use THROWAWAY IDENTITIES. They do not care for the reputation of any one avatar, because they can always set up another freebie account if the current one is cancelled. ONTH a digital person most definitely does NOT consider their avatar’s identity to be a throwaway commodity. No, it is something that should be developed and enhanced for an indefinitely long time.

So, a digital person cares about positive online reputation, probably more than any other kind of resident you come across in Second Life. It is therefore quite wrong to describe a digital person as ‘anonymous’. ‘Scope Cleaver’ is by no means anonymous within Second Life. He is very well known for his skills in architecture, and has a very positive reputation as somebody who can be relied on to produce the work he is being paid for. Much the same can be said of Gwyn. I should point out that she does not consider herself to be a digital person, but the comparisons are obvious: Gwyneth Llewelyn A) does not go around divulging RL identification and B) has taken the effort to build up a positive, and exclusively online-based, reputation. So she is very much like a digital person.

One thing that always comes up in regards to digital people is the question of ‘trust’, particularly when money is involved. For instance, somebody wrote, ‘when people want to validate your identity, they aren’t just asking you to prove you are the person they are communicating with- they are asking for an identity that is based on the real world: That you are a physically verifiable and reachable being’.

But since we are talking about trust, we should ask: What is harder to fake? RL identification, or a positive inworld reputation?

The fact is, the former is not all that hard to fake. The Web unfortunately is home to a large and well organized black market that deals in stolen or fake identities. Such websites can provide credit cards and anything else you need, all of which looks completely convincing to all but the most pathologically untrusting. You might be forgiven for thinking a forged RL identity costs a lot of money, but actually such things are sold for a modest fee.

But what about faking the kind of recognition and positive standing that a digital person strives to achieve? I am not saying it is impossible to fake the good reputation Scope Cleaver has, but I am quite sure it is very much harder than faking RL identification.

So who should you trust? Some avatar who has what s/he claims is ‘RL identification’? Or a person like Gwyn who is very well known and respected within online communities?

I, for one, know who I would trust MY money withJ.

Sadly, though, the belief that ‘this person provides no RL identity and so is not to be trusted’ is becoming more and more widespread. This makes it more and more difficult for a digital person to begin building up a positive and exclusively online-based reputation. Scope Cleaver can often (but not always) rely on the positive responses of past clients as all the guarantee he needs to secure a contract. But, what if he were just starting out, therefore had no inworld reputation to speak of, and he refused to divulge any RL identification? I do not think he would get very far. I guess Scope, Gwyn and I were fortunate to come to Second Life while it was still very much an immersionist online world, one where you could develop a good standing in the community without needing to be tied to a RL identity. Sadly, unless people wake up to the fact that brandishing a RL identity is not, actually, the perfect guarantee of trustworthiness, (and certainly less effective than a firm and good standing within online communities), new residents may never again have the opportunity to acquire the firm and positive reputations that digital people consider essential to their inworld persona.

Related posts:

  1. Fake Avatars and the Duplicates Paradox: An Essay by Extropia DaSilva
  2. Offline in the Afterlife: An Essay by Extropia DaSilva
  3. Oneness Plus Two Equals Six: An Essay by Extropia DaSilva
  4. ‘Virals’ And ‘Definitives’ In Second Life®: An Essay By Extropia DaSilva
  5. Bees And Flowers: An Essay By Extropia DaSilva

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  • extropiadasilva
    >Coming to AI, someone said The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.<

    That 'someone' was Edsger W. Dijkstra.

    >I have this strong impression that some areas of knowledge will require "tools" so different from the ones we have right now that we won't even recognise them as "scientific tools" I think this observation of Gwyn are very good. We fly today, but not by flapping wings.<

    The achievment of pioneering aviators and how they refuted the belief that 'flying machines are impossible' are often cited whenever someone proclaims 'it is not possible to build a machine that is conscious'. But, if I believed flying machines are impossible and you show me a working helicopter, it would be no defence to say 'but that is not really flying, it is just an IMITATION of flight'. ONTH, show me a robot that behaves for all the world as if it has a mind, a sense of self, and whatever else we attribute to consciousness, and the reply 'it is not really conscious, it just behaves AS IF it were' may be true. In other words, whereas 'can machines fly'? is a question that can and has been decisively answered, 'can machines be conscious?' is not. It will remain, always and forever, a matter of belief.

    But people do have a tendency to personify objects. A lot of people, for instance, have given their 'Roombas' (robot vacuum cleaners) names and treat them almost as if they were pets, and Cynthia Brezeal has shown how robots designed around an understanding of developmental psychology can push 'evolutionary buttons' that make us believe there is 'somebody home'. I have little doubt that if social robots come anywhere near to matching the sophistication with which humans interact with one another, most people will accept them as people with souls, and arguments to the contrary will occur only in ivory-tower philosophical debates.
  • extropiadasilva
    >--no evidence this happens at all... ever to anything - except in fiction.<

    Yes, but consider what past scientists did not know, and what technology they lacked. Did past scientists know about the genetic code? No. Did past scientists have technology that enables them to reverse-engineer the circuitry of the brain and to learn how it processes information? No. Today, however, we HAVE discovered the genetic code and we HAVE acquired a range of technologies that enable us to understand how the brain works (although there is still much to do in both areas).

    If I were to show you a wild cabbage along with a broccoli or a cauliflower you would be hard-pressed to see much similarity between them. And all this was achieved with only the crudest kind of genetic engineering (artificial selection). Who knows what the more advanced forms of genetic engineering might accomplish in the future? As for robotics and AI you can point to the gulf in capabilities between a robot interacting in social ways and trying to navigate a cluttered environment and a two-year old child doing likewise as evidence that machines with minds is just not possible. Me, I would rather not jump to that conclusion based on the comparison of robots whose 'brains' are nowhere near as complex as a primate brain (in fact, it was only after the late 1990s that robots finally aquired brains as or slightly more complex than an insect's). But, for all I know artificial general intelligence may always fail to bridge the gap because of some fundamental difference between nature and technology. We (or, perhaps, our descendents) will see.

    >this is again all religion. faith. so dont tell others they are confused<

    Comparing extropianism or transhumanism with religion says nothing about the feasibility of its dreams. It merely shows that those dreams have their roots in deeply-held human desires and philosophical questions. This means that the dreams will continue to be pursued no matter how many past failures lie behind us. However, in the face of direct scientific refutation (such as the kind that refutes perpetual motion) I would like to think I would abandon a dream. But, all those who say 'we do not know how the mind works' as evidence that artificial general intelligence is forever impossible forget that 'we do not know how the mind works' also means we do not know that such a thing as AGI is ruled out by anything other than our current lack of knowledge.
  • Sadly, history is made by the constant rubbing between those that think that "we don't know how this works implies that we can't understand it" and the much smaller group that says "we have no clue how this works; let's find out!" (scientists). I don't know if there is any limit to human knowledge (except, well, in the abstract sense that there is a limit of particles in the Universe to record all that knowledge ;) ), but I'm prepared to accept that there is none; however, at each age, we have just a limited set of tools (maths is a tool!) to grasp that knowledge. Succeeding generations change their mindsets, modify the paradigm, create new tools, and what seemed "impossible" in the past now suddenly can be achieved by a kindergarten kid. To the best of my knowledge (there is that word again!...) this trend is not only not slowing down, but increasing in speed, almost exponentially (but definitely at least linearly!). We might hit a limit sometime. I have no idea. But before we hit that limit, it feels silly to me to rule out that in the future we will still find the same things "impossible" as we do now. Some might be very simple once you have figured out the proper tools. Just merely recognising the problem and tackling it is the first step to figure out a solution.

    Granted, I have this strong impression that some areas of knowledge will require "tools" so different from the ones we have right now that we won't even recognise them as "scientific tools" :) ... like, for all purposes, a modern biotech lab would look like a "magician's workplace" for a Victorian who had just read Darwin and had a good understanding of combinatorial heredity on livestock and flowers :)
  • I have this strong impression that some areas of knowledge will require "tools" so different from the ones we have right now that we won't even recognise them as "scientific tools" I think this observation of Gwyn are very good. We fly today, but not by flapping wings.

    Coming to AI, someone said The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim. -- and this may be a very profound observation.
  • c3
    science isnt about KNOWING.. its about asking questions..... sadly its TECHNOLOGY that has been falsey raised to a dogma of knowing... ask young mister zuckenberg about "knowing that we dont want privacy anymore":) and how hell weild technology to make that our society...

    his grandmother should hit him.;)


    but anyway...

    Tools will ALWAYS be subject to the scientific process as to deconsttruct them... and again youre sounding very old star trek humanist...:)

    because to paraphrase " WHAT DOES GOD NEED WITH A HAMMER? (tool or technology)" and thats my point....

    TRANS= TRANFORMATION... but that again is all religious faith....and once over the fence and reborn as "popcorn kernals" i would have no ability to know i was.....or care.

    your still talking about augmentation and mediation of humans( in your examplkes of our future)... not transformation.... as i accept the terms meanings.

    my point is the here and now-- and in the usage of what we know and what we dont know--- to further all humans rights and ability to exist.
    So far, TECHNOLOGY - especially those of the last 40 years, HAS NOT shown me that it has any answers.

    WE have to ask the right questions. Then we have a chance to continue into any future.
  • extropiadasilva
    >MY point is simple again...
    STAN LEiber wrote those words as popularly known.... all your attributes are to fictional avatars from 50 years ago. STAN LEE was his pen name.

    know IF you want to head down the road of calling the guy living in southern ca today. STAN LEIBER a fictional character/ an avatar/ or heading to the "fact" that for all I know hes really a "martian" or a "super human machine from the future"<

    I believe the evidence points to Mars being devoid of complex life, and theory says you cannot time travel back to a past before time travel was invented. So I would be a bit silly to say Stan Lieber is a Martian or a super human machine from the future. ONTH, ficitional characters, pen names and how they relate to avatars are worth thinking about, and I have done so in the essay 'Bees And Flowers' http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2009/04/18/bees-and-...
  • extropiadasilva
    >Oh I love this definition! Some scientists are actually trying to see homo sapiens as fundamentally "a story-telling sentient species", in the sense that everything we do is to tell stories about our experience and our thoughts. Philosophy, religion, etc. are obviously stories about the universe — but so is science! I can totally empathise with that definition :)<

    John Wheeler likened science to a variation of the game '20 Questions'. Normally, this game involves a group agreeing on an object, and then someone else has to guess what that object is by asking questions that can only be answered 'yes' or 'no'. Now, one time he was the person who had to guess, but the group came up with the following plot: We will NOT agree on an object before hand. Instead, each person must give some truthful answer concerning some real object that was in his or her mind, which was consistent with all the answers that had gone before.

    And that is a fairly decent metaphore for science. A scientist seeks a truthful answer concerning some aspect of reality that is consistent (but also builds upon and expands) all the answers that have come before. The result is not reality itself, but a plausible fiction (in the sense that it may not be the true reality, but it does make useful predictions about the true reality).

    I have often considered storytelling to be something intrinsic to ANY species that creates technology. Invention requires the ability to imagine something that does not exist, and how reality would be affected if it did. This includes the ability to see how reality would negate the possibility of X existing, which prompts either revising your concept (or it could be your understanding of reality is wrong) or abandoning it. This has clear parallels with creating narratives.

    >Quoting that famous wise sage, Spiderman, With great power comes great responsibility.<

    Actually, I think it was Uncle Ben who said that, not Peter Parker/Spiderman. In the trailer to the movie, Peter Parker says 'I shall never forget these words. 'With great power comes great responsibility'', but in the FILM it is Uncle Ben who delivers this nugget of wisdom to him.
  • c3
    MY point is simple again...
    STAN LEiber wrote those words as popularly known.... all your attributes are to fictional avatars from 50 years ago. STAN LEE was his pen name.

    know IF you want to head down the road of calling the guy living in southern ca today. STAN LEIBER a fictional character/ an avatar/ or heading to the "fact" that for all I know hes really a "martian" or a "super human machine from the future"...

    What the tech culture needs is more STAN LEIBERS and much less FILMS MACHINED BY SONY.

    Yes . we ARE what we eat.. BUT i never WILL BE POPCORN. only a fat human.
  • extropiadasilva
    >technology BTW isnt just human made, and evidence of squids using tools has now been observed.<

    There are plenty of examples of tool use in the animal kingdom. Tool use, however, should not be confused with technology. That refers to a growing body of knowledge about how to understand and exploit natural phenomenon with physical objects. It refers to the ability to combine tools in order to invent new tools, which become the possible building blocks for yet more inventions and so on in a cycle of accumulating knowledge.

    Tool-use in the animal kingdom follows an S-curve in which improvements to a particular technique (cracking open seeds by using a stone like a hammer, say) can be pushed only so far before no further improvement is possible. But, in humans, the capacity for combining potential building blocks allows another S-curve to carry on where another levelled off, as we progress to new tools, new knowledge.

    But while I do not believe any species other than humans create technology, it does seem to be the case that some other animals have the beginnings of what could become the capacity to create technology. So, who knows, if humans were to go extinct, that might create a niche that another species (one which would go on to evolve into a fully-fledged technological species) could step into?

    >what youre now sayng seem to be much more in the beliefs of "humanism" than any "extropian" ;"posthuman" beliefs that Ive heard from the extropians since the early 90s.<

    Evolution has a visual image to explain that all living things are cousins of each other. This image is the tree of life. One of the major posthuman beliefs is that a technological species such as humans represents the point where a branch to a whole new order of life will grow. At some point our knowledge and our technology creates a shift from technology that changes what we DO, to technology that changes what we ARE. After that point, what was once human and what was once machine merges and diversifies into all kinds of new lifeforms. I am most definitely a transhuman or extropian in the sense that I believe it is POSSIBLE that humans are indeed the common ancestor for a whole new branch of technological lifeforms, and that some of those techno-lifeforms may come to have minds and powers so advanced we might as well call them gods. But I do not see this as an inevitable future event. We are just as likely to be a dead-end, whose future is simply to become extinct thanks to some ecological disaster we have not yet learned how to prevent, or intentional/accidental use of destructive technologies powerful enough to wipe out every last one of us.

    >frankly its sounds that you are now talking all about augmentation of humanity by its technology or media.. which has always been my point here...<

    I believe that both augmentation and immersionism have their roots in something fundamental to being human. Augmentation's roots lie in the need to communicate and to be in social groups. Immersionism lies in the need to tell stories. Storytelling is something we see in all cultures throughout all history. We also see that whenever a technology is invented that facilitates communication, it is invariably used to tell stories in a new way. Think writing, radio, television, the Internet. So, therefore I think 'augmentation versus immersion' is the wrong way to think about it, because A) it implies you are one or the other (most people, I believe, fall between the two to varying degrees, even if they claim to be 100% one or the other) and B) eliminating either 'augmentation' or 'immersionism' from Second Life would be to deny us the ability to express something fundamental to being human, which is an odd thing indeed to want.

    >our augenmentation by networked, immerssive media has allowed MANY to theorize that its a chance for a NEW world, with NO NATURE, NO CONSEQUENSES, .... a place for ME ME ME...<

    I believe in a future where an individual has more choice. More choice in what they will do (and what they can avoid), more choice in what they will become (and the choice not to adopt a change if they feel it does not suit them). But a world like this which is devoid of personal responsibility would become a dystopian nightmare. At least, that is what I think. So I would be very wary of anyone selling the dream of a world without consequence.
  • c3
    "At some point our knowledge and our technology creates a shift from technology that changes what we DO, to technology that changes what we ARE"

    --no evidence this happens at all... ever to anything - except in fiction.
    - this is again all religion. faith. so dont tell others they are confused...
    youve lost science( a system of collaboration and agreeable conscenses by results and the OTHER) and youre belief is now whatever YOURE calling "technology"--- dogma

    tools and media are technolgies without any special religious mumbo jumbo faith added.. but you seem to have your own "special" meanings...

    so be it.

    one might as well believe in magic as you believe in technology.

    we dont agree.
  • >Augmentation's roots lie in the need to communicate and to be in social groups. Immersionism lies in the need to tell stories.<

    Oh I love this definition! Some scientists are actually trying to see homo sapiens as fundamentally "a story-telling sentient species", in the sense that everything we do is to tell stories about our experience and our thoughts. Philosophy, religion, etc. are obviously stories about the universe — but so is science! I can totally empathise with that definition :)

    >But a world like this which is devoid of personal responsibility would become a dystopian nightmare. At least, that is what I think. So I would be very wary of anyone selling the dream of a world without consequence.<

    I couldn't agree more. I have no idea what the future might bring, and if there is one thing that scares me most about this day and age, is the lack of personal responsibility that seems to become more and more widespread. Typical signs that things are going the wrong direction are the notion that "voting is irrelevant" or that "schools and the State should protect our children, not parents". In our technological society, the drive to push all responsibility upon others has increased more and more; this, in turn, feeds our hedonistic and egotistic minds, which in turn demands more "pushing responsibilities" upon others. We see that everywhere, even in the most simple things: like, say, blaming Linden Lab for bad software development when in most cases it's one's computer that is simply misconfigured — but it's so much more easy (and irresponsible!) to put the blame on LL for everything (granted, LL aren't angels either, and if they can shift responsibility elsewhere, they will do so very often as well).

    So I also think that a technologically-enhanced society (where the individual is personally "enhanced", not only the whole society as well) can go two ways. It can, indeed, lead to an even greater level of egotistic self-de-responsibilisation, and that will naturally follow with the quick fall towards a dystopian future. But it does not have to be that way. My point of view is that we have to work first on our mindsets, and if we assume that responsibility for our actions, technological enhancements will not make us less responsible. In an ideal future, people with the right mindsets will look at technology as the ultimate way to make everyone else's lives better. Technology, so far, has always been employed that way (although of course we cannot white-wash the employment of technology in war, for example) so we're off on a rather good start.

    Quoting that famous wise sage, Spiderman, With great power comes great responsibility.
  • extropiadasilva
    ..Sorry I need to clarify my point about a co-dependency between nature and humans, and humans and technology.

    Where nature/humans are concerned, the dependency heavily leans towards humans. Frankly, we depend upon nature far more than it depends upon us. Indeed, some would argue that it does not depend upon us at all. ONTH technology is perhaps more dependent on humans for its survival than vice versa. Remove technology, and perhaps the few tribes of humans not killed by disease and starvation could rebuild technologically-advanced civilizations (although I doubt it, given that the most easily accessible resources were snatched up already). But if humans were to vanish from the face of the earth, technology absolutely would not continue. What we left behind would soon succumb to natural forces and all trace of its existence would be largely removed within a few thousand years.
  • c3
    then we agree more than disagree. and what youre now sayng seem to be much more in the beliefs of "humanism" than any "extropian" ;"posthuman" beliefs that Ive heard from the extropians since the early 90s.

    technology BTW isnt just human made, and evidence of squids using tools has now been observed.

    frankly its sounds that you are now talking all about augmentation of humanity by its technology or media.. which has always been my point here... and that our augenmentation by networked, immerssive media has allowed MANY to theorize that its a chance for a NEW world, with NO NATURE, NO CONSEQUENSES, .... a place for ME ME ME...

    Never seems to work out that way.;)
  • extropiadasilva
    >does it? evolution is the result of mutations of chance that assist in an organisms "battle" with nature- survival.
    technology-code- media- etc dosent mutate--- WE "actively" change it or kill it.<

    You are talking about natural selection. I agree that the way natural selection works makes it ill-suited as a mechanism for technological evolution. But that does not mean technology does not evolve. It only means we need a different theory. What drives technological evolution is 'combinatorial evolution'. I talk about that in my essay 'It's Alive: The Theory And Consequences Of Technological Evolution'.

    >WE "actively" change it or kill it...technology is only yhe byproduct of human actions<

    Human hands were made (in evolutionary terms, not intelligent design) for the manipulation of matter and the human mind was made for the creation of technology. Like it or not, we are almost as co-dependent on technology as we are on the Earth's eco-systems. Almost, but not quite. If humans were to go extinct, the Earth's biosphere would carry on, but technology could not continue. But that fact should not blind us to the fact that the human race is very much dependent on technology for its survival.

    Believing you are seperate from something when you are, in fact, dependent on it, is not healthy. The belief that humans were seperate from the rest of Nature when, in fact, it is perhaps the most co-dependent species on the planet, is perhaps the major reason we believed the Earth's natural resources could be exploited endlessly without suffering dire consequences. How wrong we were.

    Mentally seperating technology from humans can come in two forms. 1: Believing that technology will one day free itself from human minds and hands and carry on evolving without human help. 2: Believing humans can divorce themselves from technology and go back to a state of Nature. The first attitude is not healthy if adopting it means you come to see future technology as some kind of messiah that will turn up tomorrow and make the world perfect. The other attitude is not healthy because it romanticises a state of nature which, as Hobbes said, is a nasty, brutish and short existence.

    But just because technology will never make the world perfect, does not mean it is foolish to hope tomorrow we will replace our current inadequate tech with improved stuff, and that makes the world a better place compared to what it was. But, then again: Better by whose standard? Chances are, a world shaped to suit my desires would seem like the worst dystopia to others. If machines were to develop minds of their own that were as capable at creativity and invention as human minds are, I think they would be no better at shaping the future into something that suits everyone. People (whatever form they take) will always have different ideas concerning what they want out of life, and that is one reason why a perfect world is not possible.
  • extropiadasilva
    I am not sure where the term 'digital person' comes from. I am not the one who coined it, I just heard a lot of people at Extropia Core describe themselves as such, and I adopted it as a descriptive label for any roleplayed character in an online space. The term is not meant to imply any kind of binary division (although for all I know whoever coined the term may have intended such a meaning. Whatever: I do not). Also, when I am talking about digital people I am largely referring to characters created and developed in online worlds that are pupeteered by humans. If I talk about avatars driven by autonomously-developing artificial intelligences, it would be in terms of what might be achieved in the future. This essay, though, is not concerned with futurist speculations of that kind.

    >And its been "WE' who can adapt, not the machine, which cant<

    A machine is currently far less able to adapt and respond than an animal. But TECHNOLOGY does indeed evolve. Moreover, you can take all the criteria we use to judge if something is alive (growth, reproduction, and response and adaptation to the environment) and each is applicable to technology. Therefore, technology is alive. However, so far it relies on human agency for its buildout and reproduction and so it is only alive in the sense that a coral reef is a living thing (coral reefs, remember, are built from the activities of tiny organisms).
  • c3
    "But TECHNOLOGY does indeed evolve"

    does it? evolution is the result of mutations of chance that assist in an organisms "battle" with nature- survival.
    technology-code- media- etc dosent mutate--- WE "actively" change it or kill it.

    Coral Reefs.
    are they not the "byproduct"- dead fossils- of living organisms... just as technology is only yhe byproduct of human actions...

    maybe this is worth a read, you most likely wont agree, but its the argumant i make, and its made from one whom like I has had many years of being to close to Extropian realities..and fantasies:)

    http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people5/Lanier...

    auguements over posthumanism are just as futile as ones over "heaven" and "god transformations" to promised "perfection"
    religious like beliefs control the discussion. The residue is what becomes the civics online so far... and powers the stupidity of vr platforms such as SL being thought of as any desirable evolution for interpersonal human relations, or for even "potential" coded to natural being communications.

    Its the Media... Not the message. even if i think your message isnt one i favor;)
  • extropiadasilva
    >which means nothing about your opinions value or truth. And mediation has been well examined by many others who "think" ;) as well.<

    Truth, huh? In my experience, people think reality is like a box with two compartments. One is labelled 'fact' and the other is labelled 'fantasy'. All objects, places, events, ideas, concepts...etc belongs in compartment or the other.

    But this neat and tidy view breaks down almost immediately. For one thing, people disagree about where something should be placed. Where would you place 'Jesus Christ'? Some would insist He belongs in the compartment labelled 'Fact', others would put Him in the compartment labelled 'Fiction'. And plenty of others would argue that aspects of his life story belong in one compartment while the rest belong in the other.

    What about an individual's memories? If you remember it, it happened so you would put your own past into the 'fact' compartment. But the impression of having an accurate playback of the past is an illusion. The brain recalls only the gist of what happened, and fills in the missing gaps with plausible fantasies.

    What about a truth as obvious as your 'real' self? Surely that belongs in 'fact'? No. Much research shows that there is no such thing. In many experiments (the most famous being the Stanford Prison experiment and Stanley Milgram's obedience experiment but there are plenty of others) it has been established that people switch personality to match what is required of them, while at the same time believing they are giving a neutral and honest description of their 'real' personality.

    For all I know, OBJECTIVE reality actually is like a box with two compartments and everything does belong in one or the other. But people forget that their reality is SUBJECTIVE. It is a fantasy that coincides with reality most of the time, but not always. Subjectively, Truth and Lies, Fact and Fantasy are fluid, sometimes seperate, sometimes mixing, one becoming the other and changing back again depending on what you happen to have been taught and how you have been brought up to interpret it. Truth, for just about every individual, means little more than 'whatever confirms my prejudices':)

    >and my point had nothing to do with "nice designs" as beyond the thinking of only one person. the initiating party. who is still , for now , NOT a software program.<

    What have software programs got to do with?

    >Thank you for this, Extropia, I've been thinking about avatar as Brand, and Scope as well many other great designers and creators came to mind.<

    Avatar As Brand is an interesting concept indeed, especially as it questions the assumption that for every avatar there is one, and only one, 'real' person. But, actually, for all I know Scope could be a group of people, or he could be a succession of individuals, one trusted party taking over from the other when the former finally retires. In principle, a digital person is a-pattern created by online communties, existing above and beyond any one individual.
  • whump
    >But, actually, for all I know Scope could be a group of people, or he could be a succession of individuals, one trusted party taking over from the other when the former finally retires. In principle, a digital person is a-pattern created by online communties, existing above and beyond any one individual.<

    Which is a design pattern not unique to digital people, recall the 20th C. mathematician Nicolas Bourbaki.
  • c3
    or "Corporations"... which are not in any way digital as well..

    My issues are those of the binary- and of the "faith" that is placed to the machine. Which has no subjectivity, or humanity as of yet. There is a reason the faith is called the "singularity".. it has little room for the other.

    Just as many have taken christianity to the extreme faith of only "jesus and me"... all binary, and objectively not shown to be usally benefitial to then "other" when comined with actual humans.

    And its been "WE' who can adapt, not the machine, which cant, that change so far in mediated , or virtual media.

    Its SL and its design that keeps failing, vasilating between "tight rules" as in Milligram, and no rules as in "old hippie faux free anarchy" thus when its used in any "human rights" discussions," avatars as units deserving rights, all falls apart.

    the failure and abuses of the "corporation" as avatar in a "free libertarian" or capitalism based society offers TRUE objective results to systems not working or being civically benefitial to many.
  • whump
    Thank you for this, Extropia, I've been thinking about avatar as Brand, and Scope as well many other great designers and creators came to mind.
  • extropiadasilva
    >Trust is irrelevant in a world without Consequenses. Which is what you keep assuming virtuality is all about.<

    I cannot imagine how you came to that conclusion. Online worlds allow- indeed fundamentally emerge from- complex social interactions. Among other things this can enable a communal memory of past actions and behaviour. To take your example of Scope, if the general opinion of the SL community was 'geez, Scope DOESN'T make nice buildings' I hardly think it is true to say this would have no consequences for his standing in the community and the likelihood of being trusted with future contracts.

    >we are PEOPLE. not "digital people"<

    This issue is more complex than a lot of people like to think it is. I have written extensively about this in the past, so I see no reason to lay out the arguments again here:)
  • dr
    "This issue is more complex than a lot of people like to think it is. I have written extensively about this in the past,"

    which means nothing about your opinions value or truth. And mediation has been well examined by many others who "think" ;) as well.

    and my point had nothing to do with "nice designs" as beyond the thinking of only one person. the initiating party. who is still , for now , NOT a software program.
  • c3
    the issue ISNT.. GEE.. Scope made another a nice building. its GEEZ.. Scope "didnt" make me a nice building...( nothing personal scope;)- the author made you the object of the issue;).

    Trust is irrelevant in a world without Consequenses. Which is what you keep assuming virtuality is all about. THAT view is gladly being seen by more and more as the true non reality, as they get to finally use and create virtual media in their lives.

    we are PEOPLE. not "digital people"
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