Recently, Gareth Ellison, one of the promoters of the Open Source Grid, did a promotional event by being in-world to explain how exactly the OS Grid works and how people can connect to it.
The OS Grid is one of several that run the reverse-engineered (but Linden-approved) Open Grid Services / OpenSim software suite. Each has a different goal, but OS Grid is strongly encouraging the creation of a completely free environment, and want to establish a foundation to draw resources (financial and human) to support a free, costless, Second Life-compatible grid.
You can connect to the OS Grid with any standard SL client, or compile your own SL-compatible client. The beauty of it is that it relies on the almost-completely-documented SL Protocol. In effect, these SL-compatible grids are very similar to what LL is doing with their own grid: server and client are pretty much independent, but both agree on a common protocol, which is going to remain stable for a while. So LL can launch new clientes without changing the server software; and the reverse, of course, is also true.
So how advanced are these reverse-engineered solutions? Well, the mere fact that they work at all is a pleasant surprise. OpenSim allows you to run your own server, using applications running on top of libSecondLife; Open Grid Services is the “glue” that replaces LL’s “central servers” (login and asset servers, etc.) and make several disjointed sims be part of the same grid. When you register with OS Grid, you can pick any avatar name and join any sim that is on the grid. Similarly, if you managed to compile and run a version of OpenSim on your computer, you can add your own sim to the existing grid (note that avatars will require around 100 Kbps of upstreaming bandwidth, so forget about running your own sim behind an ADSL/cable modem connection — it’ll handle 3-4 avatars at most).
Right now, obviously, don’t expect “miracles”. OS Grid allows you to have an avatar and talk to other people, and even IM them, but there is not much more to do beyond watching the landscape — which will also be free of prims, since OS Grid hasn’t implemented an asset server yet.
Also, the first question that everybody asks is “will I be able to connect my sim to Linden Lab’s grid?”. The answer, of course, is no. Linden Lab does not allow anyone to connect their own sims to their grid — something that will possibly change in 2009/2010, but not before — so basically this is just one separate grid which runs the same protocol as Second Life, but there is no way to get your inventory from LL’s servers and upload it to the OS Grid. At least — not yet!
So why would you use it? Right now, it’s very likely that you won’t; OS Grid is about at the same level of development as the LL grid was in, say, 2001 or so. But it has a huge advantage: more programmers than LL had back in 2001; a fully-developed open source client (so people can focus on the servers for now); and, of course, we all know what the final result is going to be! LL, back in 1999-2001, had no clear idea on how the grid would work in the future at all.
An open source grid is naturally the dream of everybody who’s tired with LL’s recent strong measures in limiting personal freedoms, which will only increase in time. By distributing grids all over the world, and interconnecting them together, the Metaverse will just become like the Internet: independent of local authorities which can have global reach. Put into other words: you’ll be allowed to do whatever is legal for your country and the country where you’re connected to (like on the Internet), but nobody outside your country will be able to enforce anything you like. And, of course, if your country is restricting your personal freedom too much, you can jump over to the sims hosted on a different country. Just like on the Web.
It also means that even if Linden Lab is shut down due to legal and governmental pressure to turn Second Life into Disneyland, we have now a way out: the software is there, and it works. It only needs a lot of work until it becomes more and more similar to LL’s own SL grid, but at least we know what needs to be done. This is the first step towards Second Life’s immortality: making sure that Linden Lab’s eventual downfall will not leave the almost 9 million registered users without a place to go.
I’ve attached the transcript of the meeting below:
Gareth Ellison: extropia: i wish the WTH (World Transhumanist Association) wre more proactive
Laetizia Coronet: well I had better run off before the new talk starts
Gareth Ellison: they have the philosophy down
Books Janus: Gareth Ellison, you have me so baffled. You’re the ball.
Gareth Ellison: they need the practical technology down
Gareth Ellison: that orange ball next to me is an orange btw 😉
Books Janus: lol
Tracer Ping: to make snow crash into a game you have to have interesting people
Morgaine Dinova: Well, transhumanism is pretty much on hold, waiting for nanotech, which got delayed by Bush and vested interests. Annoying
Laetizia Coronet: you see? WHen I leave the light goes out 😛
Gareth Ellison: nanotech isn’t needed
Extropia DaSilva: Anyway, Extropia means ‘a dynamic environment where people choose the social form they prefer’ which could be a description of SL/metaverse.
Gareth Ellison: i hacked up a simple BCI myself at home
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gareth Ellison: and just took a big dose of piracetam earlier
Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: it’s not needed for handwaving, but it’s needed for engineering.
Gareth Ellison: lots of things can be done without nanotech
Morgaine Dinova: Not enough
Lalinda Lovell: like hoovering
Tracer Ping: all the tech in the world can’t stave of the boring consumer march for entertainment
Gareth Ellison: when i have the cash my hackish BCI will replace my keyboard
Laetizia Coronet: bye everyone – next time I’ll try to make an untrustworthy avatar
Books Janus: bye, laetizia
Books Janus: don’t wear a tux.
Extropia DaSilva: Technically-speaking the construction of the matrioska brain does not need nanotech. Just that it would not be optimal without it.
Morgaine Dinova: Laetizia: hahaha, maybe we should all do that 😛 See you next time
Laetizia Coronet: lol Books
Gareth Ellison: should i just dive into the OSGrid talk if your thinkers group is more or less done?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Laetizia! but you need to come under a new alt
Lalinda Lovell: was this place on tv?
Laetizia Coronet: bye Morg
Gareth Ellison: only 5 mins to go
Extropia DaSilva: yes that is fine with me Gareth,
Gareth Ellison: ok
Extropia DaSilva: means I get to hear a bit about it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, Gareth, perhaps you should wait a tiny bit, since I believe more people will come just for that event
hoppa Balut: Wells as humanity we decided to chosse for the techway out! So finish that course
Morgaine Dinova: Oh, OSgrid! Cool, I’m staying for that. I thought it was BDSM next …. 🙂
Gareth Ellison: i’ll wait 5 mins then
Lalinda Lovell: charismo are you a character from naked lunch?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine, pfft 😀
Scope Cleaver: I’ll stay either way Morg
Gareth Ellison: no, the kinky uploading takes place later – who wants to upload into a dildo?
Joaz Janus: Thx for stimulating chat folks…..I trust you all…no honestly I reaaly do….(she lied)
Morgaine Dinova: You have a quorum already, Gareth
Lalinda Lovell: was this place on tv
Tracer Ping: I jsut want to say chaawkklit rainnnn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Joaz. “Everything I say is a lie”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Lalinda Lovell: is this thing on
Gareth Ellison: ok, i’ll start
Joaz Janus: fades to….black
Gareth Ellison: i was asked to come here and speak about OSGrid – the attempt at a totally free and open source grid
Gareth Ellison: running opensim+OGS (Open Grid Services
Gareth Ellison: shall i presume all present are familiar with opensim?
Lem Skall: sorry, brb
Morgaine Dinova: See you Jozie!
Morgaine Dinova: Yup
hoppa Balut: Please explain opensim?
Gareth Ellison: well, for those unfamiliar – opensim is as it sounds – an open source sim
Gareth Ellison: produced by reverse-engineering the SL protocols
Gareth Ellison: much of the work on the protocol level was performed by the libsl team
Gareth Ellison: the sim component was initially produced as a proof of concept
Gareth Ellison: but has now been expanded into a working application
Freida Barzane: So, Sl where you create your own sub-world part of the virtual universe?
Gareth Ellison: alongside the sim software, there is a backend of the grid services
Nix Sands is Offline
Gareth Ellison: known as OGS (Open Grid Services)
Gareth Ellison: that’s the servers which store stuff like user profiles, inventory, assets etc
Gareth Ellison: am i being followed here?
Books Janus: yes
Morgaine Dinova: Yup
Extropia DaSilva: yes.
Flyingroc Chung: yup
Freida Barzane: think so
hoppa Balut: hope
Math Gazov: what do you need to run your own server?
Flyingroc Chung: so, grid services have to be centralized?
Tracer Ping: So this will be passworded and secure?
Gareth Ellison: ok, OSGrid is essentially an installation of the grid services
Gareth Ellison: to which anyone can link their own sim
Gareth Ellison: the idea is that you download opensim and host it on your own server then link it to OSGrid
Sean18 McCarey: and it can be anywhere on the internet
Tracer Ping: A sim without $L sounds like a good idea to me
Math Gazov: how do you run your sim?
Morgaine Dinova: Adam said earlier that the services are per site, so not centralized
Freida Barzane: No land shortage, no real use, at least at first, for standardized currency
Gareth Ellison: within one grid the services are centralised
Flyingroc Chung: I see
hoppa Balut: Sounds like P2P serving
Gareth Ellison: what OGS allows is for anyone to run a grid
Gareth Ellison: and what OSGrid allows is for anyone to run a sim without needing to also run a grid
Sean18 McCarey: neat
Extropia DaSilva: But ‘the grid’ is, what. 10,000 PCS?
Gareth Ellison: anyone who hasn’t already done so i advise to go to the website and get an account
Afn Bade: I think that commerce will be in micropayments not in L$ on open servers that support money transactions
Gareth Ellison: www.osgrid.org
Sean18 McCarey: and grids and sims in other locations can all interconnect?
Math Gazov: will OSG grids connect with SL?
Gareth Ellison: Extropia: the grid is the backend services and the sims
Tracer Ping: database servers
Gareth Ellison: LL have not yet opened their grid to third-pary servers
Extropia DaSilva: How can my primary run SL on her poxy little laptop?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Math 🙂
Gareth Ellison: *party
Freida Barzane: Would it allow 50 people to meet in an area with no lagfest? Or would it be dependant upon the host’s connection speed?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in 2009 possibly, yes
Tracer Ping: what kind of strain are we talkign about can someone run this over say a cable connection?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my
Gareth Ellison: it’s dependent upon the connection speed
Flyingroc Chung: sims interconnect with each other in one grid, of which the services are centralized
Gareth Ellison: 38kbps per user
Extropia DaSilva: If LL require tens of thousands of pcs for the grid?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tracer, make a quick calculation. One avatar takes, on average, 100 Kbps
Gareth Ellison: extropia: LL have 1000s of sims
Gareth Ellison: they run 4 per server
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you want to host events with 40 people,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s 4 Mbps — UPLOAD speed
Gareth Ellison: opensim can run 64 per server
Tracer Ping: ok so basically a big money sink
Gareth Ellison: it’s vastly more efficient
Math Gazov: LL is very centralised Extro, smaller servers would hols only your friends maybe
Tracer Ping: to have a private place for friends
Gareth Ellison: different design
Freida Barzane: That is a lot of bandwidth
Extropia DaSilva: Oh OK.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, it is
Sean18 McCarey: and we can run script the same way?
Books Janus: Does it connect into sl SEARCH
Gwyneth Llewelyn: specially because most ADSL/cable connections in your home will have 128 Kbps-512 Kbps on average
Gareth Ellison: the eventual aim of OGS is to enable various grids to interconnect
Gareth Ellison: OSGrid is one such grid
Freida Barzane: Whoops, just got word time for dinner — take care all
Gareth Ellison: lots of businesses may run their own smaller grids
Math Gazov: P2P, paralell processing?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gareth — are you planning to interconnect with the Deep grid as well?
Gareth Ellison: which one may move into
Gareth Ellison: Gwyneth: when foreign user support is done, yes
Afn Bade: deep grid?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Afn — Deep Grid is a “similar” project
Quanta Torok: When you say that LL ‘may possibly open in 2009’ is that from inside sources or ?
Gareth Ellison: deep grid is similar but has mildly different ideaology and goals
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s say, Quanta, that’s from “wishful thinking” of LL’s Board
Gareth Ellison: run by a fellow opensim dev
Tracer Ping: streaming content is just not feasable for the average user
Tracer Ping: If you could make a static database
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, Gareth — just wondering if you’d merge projects at some point.
Gareth Ellison: for myself, my goals are to spread the metaverse like the WWW
Math Gazov: SL will have to open soon, if independent grids open and join
Gareth Ellison: not merge – link
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Gareth
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes… link!
Gareth Ellison: that’s a critical part of the vision
Math Gazov: link!!
Flyingroc Chung: hm, does opengrid also support virtual currency?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Math — LL hasn’t developed an open source version of the server software yet
Gareth Ellison: did anyone here attend my talk at SL4B?
Extropia DaSilva: This almost sounds like your crowdsourcing the technology of Sl idea, Gwyn.
Sean18 McCarey: has SL stated any official position on such an interconnection?
Math Gazov: didn’t you say 2009 gwyn?
Gareth Ellison: there i cited SL asa precursor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye Math
Gareth Ellison: apoloogies for the typos btw – lag
Kaskazi Munro: When distributed sim becomes as large or larger than SL – LL will be “happy” to link.
Gareth Ellison: at SL4B i talked about where i envision the future direction beyond SL
Lem Skall: Gareth, what is the intent then, link with SL eventually, run separately, “replace” SL?
Tracer Ping: your talking fiber optic speeds to end users for this kind of thing
Gareth Ellison: one intermediate step between SL and what could be considered the true 3D web is these open SL-compatible grids
Flyingroc Chung: distributed metaverse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Alpha Auer: this almost seems to me like the birth of the 3D internet…
Gwyneth Llewelyn watches Morgaine drool
Kaskazi Munro: Bandwidth (I’m told) is growing faster than cpu speed and storage capacity.
Gareth Ellison: remove from centralised control
Gareth Ellison: the aim is to be compatible with SL and extend technical features
Tracer Ping: adobe tried that and failed miserably
Morgaine Dinova: Not droolling until I see the scalability architecture 😛
Gareth Ellison: ultimately, SL will become obsolete
Sean18 McCarey: will there be a standardisation effort?
Ina Centaur: / curious.. if SL were to open source the servers, would they also open source the asset/inventory servers?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Gareth Ellison: until then, we need a compatible replacement
Gwyneth Llewelyn: possibly, Ina 😉
Gareth Ellison: LL are likely to open the sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: very likely, yes
Gareth Ellison: the backend i doubt
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, the likeliness of them opening the servers grows towards 100% in late 2009 😉
Ina Centaur: / content ownership problems might arise if that occurs
Scope Cleaver: Whats their revenue model then I wonder
Gwyneth Llewelyn: agreed, Gareth. I haven’t heard any talk about the backend servers.
Ina Centaur: / content creators may not want crowdsourced servers having open access to their wares
Tracer Ping: I mean you gotta think, do you really want to reverse engineer such an unstable database server in the first place
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scope: interconnection agreements
Tracer Ping: or just make something that works
Morgaine Dinova: Ina: you can’t hold back the march of progress just because people’s business models are badly affected.
Gareth Ellison: the protocol itself is not a major problem
Gareth Ellison: the architecture needs updating
Math Gazov: content hosting can’t be a monopoly, that’s the big mistake of SL
Tracer Ping: so it’s hardware related
Gareth Ellison: i have tons of documents detailing how to make everything scalable
Gareth Ellison: it’s not hardware related – it’s software
Kaskazi Munro: How about currency exhange?
Flyingroc Chung: their server software is buggY?
Gareth Ellison: the protocols are stableish, the code is buggy
Books Janus: who’s designing the software?
Morgaine Dinova: On osg.org or opensim.org?
Ina Centaur: @unstable database server… MySQL?
Sean18 McCarey: shouldn’t inventory be on client computers rather than an asset server exclusively?
Gareth Ellison: about L$ – that’s an undecided issue for OGS
Flyingroc Chung: “stableish” doesnt inspire confidence
Tracer Ping: just like any mmorpg that has tons of people workign on the same code
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ina: MySQL is not “unstable” if properly tuned,
Tracer Ping: bloated ware
Gwyneth Llewelyn: something which is true about almost all software really 🙂
Ina Centaur: @sean, stuff on client computers remain inaccessible if client is off or has low bandwidth
Gareth Ellison: the code for opensim/OGS is being worked on by myself and others
Tracer Ping: but can you remove a feature without ruining it
Books Janus: you update?
Gareth Ellison: if anyone wants to talk to the other devs then get onto efnet #opensim
Morgaine Dinova: efnet? Not freenode? Efnet is ful of kiddies and splits
Gareth Ellison: efnet was chosen for historical reasons
Zany Lane: How many sims are running on open source grids today?
Sean18 McCarey: no reason “assets” can’t be on client too with a system preference for the client thus reducing bandwidth for assets
Gareth Ellison: deepgrid has 300+, OSGrid is quite new and has around 7 at last check
Gareth Ellison: it’s just over 1 week old
Zany Lane: Thats pretty good for just getting started.
Gareth Ellison: deep grid is a few months old now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to be honest, DeepGrid has perhaps close to 400 *registered* sims,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: availability is however around 1% 😉
Zany Lane: Can anyone log onto them at no charge right now?
Afn Bade: So the goal of OS grid is to replace LL’s sim with a protocol that can then become expanded and multiplatform?
Math Gazov: where’s deepgrid???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, Zany 😉
Sean18 McCarey: i wonder how much open market data centre fees for an opensim server would compare to SL charges
Tracer Ping: good question
Morgaine Dinova: Adam said just a couple of hours ago that Deepgrid was really just his test system, and buyer beware.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Math:
Extropia DaSilva: Deep grid was built by pan-dimensional beings in order to compute the answer to THE question…no sorry that was deep Thought..
Gareth Ellison: i could have arranged for this talk to happen on OSGrid actually
Tracer Ping: lets see basic /sl free
Gareth Ellison: OSGrid is guaranteed to remain free
Gareth Ellison: hosting provided by the open metaverse foundation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay for that decision, Gareth!!
Scope Cleaver: wow
Gareth Ellison: if i wanted to commercialise it, i’d have to get new hosting
Math Gazov: bandwith, data storing and internet 2 should greatly decrease charges in a couple of years
Gareth Ellison: and i wouldn’t want to anyway
Gareth Ellison: progress > profit
Math Gazov: ty Gwyn 🙂
Flyingroc Chung: how does one connect to OSGrid?
Ina Centaur: viva!
Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn told me Internet 2 is defunct.
Gareth Ellison: a cheap server can be got from some places for $9.99/month
Sean18 McCarey: unlimited bandwidth hosting with unlimited datacentre support?
Morgaine Dinova: Nice to hear that Gareth
Tracer Ping: This isn’t about connecting it’s about creation atm
Ina Centaur: / would the open metaverse foundation have more uptime than LL though o_O
Ina Centaur: @gareth.. dedicated server for $10/month? o_O
Gareth Ellison: if anyone wants to discuss linking a sim and wants technical details/instruction please email me
Gareth Ellison: [email protected]
Gareth Ellison: virtual dedicated
Gareth Ellison: plenty for a sim
Sean18 McCarey: virtual dedicated?
Morgaine Dinova: Xen?
Sean18 McCarey: you can put easily 100 virtuals on a server
Gareth Ellison: run your server inside a virtual machine
Scope Cleaver: Basicaly more than one per physical machine
Gareth Ellison: Xen/UML/whatever
Tracer Ping: thats like 100 12 packs of beer
Sean18 McCarey: dedicated means 1 machine 1 server
Gareth Ellison: it’s trivial to put a few 1000 sims per box
Gareth Ellison: virtual dedicated == dedicated VM
Sean18 McCarey: it makes no sense
Sean18 McCarey: i have never heard that term
Extropia DaSilva: OK I have to go. Bye everyone!
Scope Cleaver: Later Extro *hugs*
Morgaine Dinova: Bye Extie!
Alpha Auer: Bye Extropia
Ina Centaur: / 1000 sims on a box… but at the cost of turning everyone into 1-prim boxes?
Gareth Ellison: the OMF btw is quite new
Flyingroc Chung: how much storage does your current asset server have right now?
Tracer Ping: I don’t know I still think reverse engineerign is the wrong way to approach this
Gareth Ellison: the asset server is currently under development
Tracer Ping: I think using something like a quake3 open source
Lem Skall: Gareth is scalability of servers then based on the number of sims, or the number of logins or what?
Gareth Ellison: Tracer: reverse engineering is the only way to build something SL-compatible
Tracer Ping: with multiple linked worlds as maps
Tracer Ping: oh compatible
Afn Bade: Will it be possible to have OSgrid scale exponentially using p2p or swarm networks? If 1K people or 10k people wanted watch your sim, the system could scale?
Gareth Ellison: scalability on the backend requires some designed but not-yet implemented changes
Ina Centaur: reverse engineering would be assuming that LL won’t release code
Gareth Ellison: once those changes are in, it should theoretically be infiniteelly scalable
Tracer Ping: you really think they will let you run a server that links to the money mill that is the LINDEX?
Tracer Ping: you could create for free and bring in your warez
Gareth Ellison: whether LL ultimately open their grid is of little concern
Scope Cleaver: it is?
Lem Skall: Gareth, I meant scalability per sim, or isn’t a sim even running on a single server?
Sean18 McCarey: also the software license usually prohibits reverse engineering if in fact SL holds any valid copyrights or patents.
Gareth Ellison: the open grids will overcome
Afn Bade: swarm video, audio… you might get 1k viewers… mass market potential there if it can be done.
Lamont Helvetic: if it is interoperable.. the warez will be interoperable anyway
Gareth Ellison: reverse engineering of network protocols is completely legal
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean18, actually, LL is pretty much encouraging this…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linden employees *help* these guys out 🙂
Tracer Ping: It’s pointless because the databases won’t be of synch
Tracer Ping: you would need a vanilla avatar and db to connect
Sean18 McCarey: not if it copywriten and expressly prohibits it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A question, Gareth, can I ask you what your thoughts on the implementation of the asset servers are? 🙂
Math Gazov: we need LL connection to let all this content out
Gareth Ellison: you can not copyright protocols
Gareth Ellison: only patent them
Gwyneth Llewelyn rather liked the approach of using DNS, like the Sheep do
Morgaine Dinova: Simple number of sims doesn’t give you scalability. You have to scale for people going to events, otherwise your “scalability” is just an illusion, as in SL currently.
Gareth Ellison: Gwyneth – we have an asset server, but it’s unstable right now
Sean18 McCarey: you can copyright the software and patent the process
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, just curious 🙂
Morgaine Dinova: “Scalable” but everyone having to staty in their home sim is not scalable at all.
Gareth Ellison: software patents are not enforcable in europe, and in the US LL’s patent has been refused
Math Gazov: scale connections is going exponential, that’s what’s messing SL right now
Lem Skall: right Morg, I was thinking even that it’s easy to run 1000 empty sims on a server, but what about one server with 1000 avs on one server?
Tracer Ping: LL is in a world of shit right now
Gareth Ellison: the issue with scalable sims is a flaw of the protocol
Sean18 McCarey: sounds good then
Gareth Ellison: i can’t htink of a way with the SL protocol which could allow distribution of sims
Morgaine Dinova: OMG, the USPTO rejected a patent application? It must be the Second Coming ….
Gareth Ellison: i have privately designed a new protocol
Lamont Helvetic: well.. teh casino closing is a great opportunity to get some donations to the cause
Razor Briggs: sorry i havent been talking just went and signed up at osgrid.org
Lem Skall: what is the architecture? one sim completely on one server or a fixed number of avs per server, no matter what sim they are on? or another possibility?
Gareth Ellison: which may solve these issues, but that’s a long long project
Gareth Ellison: this new protocol i call gmmp
Ina Centaur: +morgaine… yes, what are the conditions where 1000 sims/core is possible?
Tracer Ping: I’m still tryign to figure out what the point is
Math Gazov: reverse engineering allows you more efficient an open protocols
Gareth Ellison: generic metaverse messaging protocol
Tracer Ping: besides bragging rights
Sean18 McCarey: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh nice
Sean18 McCarey: not without massive improvement in server speeds
Flyingroc Chung: what platform are you developing the software on?
Gareth Ellison: gmmp is based on several layers of abstraction – a “channel” may have text, voice, 3D etc
Tracer Ping: I dunno I’m just the guy who is along the lines of why buy a cow when you get the milk for free
Gareth Ellison: and each channel is distributable across the network
Gareth Ellison: opensim is being developed in mono and .NET
Gareth Ellison: in order to make use of libsl
Razor Briggs: could someone IM me who knows about this and can fill me in so i can catch up 🙂
Sean18 McCarey: .net is not open
Sean18 McCarey: it’s commercial
Gareth Ellison: my (dying) C fork uses apache modules
Razor Briggs: but xna’s .net is open
Flyingroc Chung: mono is open
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Mono is…
Sean18 McCarey: at least SL is all linux
Gareth Ellison: mono is open
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay 🙂
Flyingroc Chung: you can run mono on linux, I’ve used libsl a little on a mac.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, you were lucky, FR 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had no such luck, lol
Morgaine Dinova: Ina: you have to drop the static allocation of resources and use a dynamic allocation structure. LL’s servers just idle when their inhabitants go to events, while the event sims glow red hot and cannot cope. Static allocation just doesn’t work.
Flyingroc Chung: heh
Gareth Ellison: OSGrid is running on a linux box
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well Morgaine… one way to handle it temporarily is to run 100 servers on a single oct-dual-core-CPU hehe
Scope Cleaver: Base allocation on avatar?
Flyingroc Chung: you needed to mondiy their nant thingy, it was a mess, last time I looked at it
Scope Cleaver: 1 CPU per AV!! yay
Razor Briggs: if we use XNA .nets framework we can pull off some of the most advanced graphics and rendering on the market today
Gareth Ellison: dynamic allocation can’t really work iwth the current model of sims allocated to servers
Sean18 McCarey: oh will good luck getting 55000 people to connect to one webserver
Zany Lane: How reliable are the sims currently?
Math Gazov: 1 CPUs avatars could be nearly alive, Extro will be so happy!!!
Sean18 McCarey: each running 40kbs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Lamont Helvetic: or grid computing teh way Sun uses the phrase – a network of machines sharing the workload
Ina Centaur: @moragine.. would dynamic allocation of resources across networks lead to data loss (or lag in transfer, thus indirect data loss)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Gareth Ellison: for info on how stable is opensim i refer you to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: installing OpenSim on Amazon’s S3 infrastructure? :-d
Gareth Ellison: EC3
Ina Centaur: letting amazon take over LL? ;-P
Gareth Ellison: i think that’s it called
Zany Lane: How many avatars have you had in one sim at the same time with opensim?
Gareth Ellison: ugh, lag
Ina Centaur: ec3 is just access to the amazon db, i believe..
Lem Skall: can a lot of the load on the server be moved to the clients? as in P2P?
Gareth Ellison: Zany – in tests, about 30 or 40 works
Gareth Ellison: but those tests are old
Zany Lane: Thats not bad
Ina Centaur: @lem… kinda like the search for ET o_O
Chase Marellan: EC3 si the Elastic Compute Cloud — servers on demand, basically
Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: temporarily one could use big iron while remaining statically mapped, yes because internal comms on a top end domained Sun say are cheap. But it’s just not viable on cost, and it can’t scale very far anyway, just hundreds, not dozens of thousands of sims.
Chase Marellan: ec2
Zany Lane: Can anyone have their own sim on a home based server?
Flyingroc Chung: Where would an interested developer start, if he wanted to contribute to the project?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I know, Morgaine 🙂
Gareth Ellison: look at the bugtracker, fix bugs
Gareth Ellison: Zany – yes
Gareth Ellison: if you have a reasonable connection
Razor Briggs: has there been any changed to sl in these open grids?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zany, it’ll be more of a question of how much upstreaming bandwidth you’ve got on your ADSL/cable connection really
Gareth Ellison: the SL viewer is unchanged
Zany Lane: Will it run reliably on a DSL or cable modem?
Gareth Ellison: a few new scripting languages etc are coming
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For one or two avatars, yes, Zany 🙂
Gareth Ellison: should do if you have the bandwidth
Kaskazi Munro: Ruby on Railsim
Morgaine Dinova: The SL viewer HAS to change, naturally, as the sims scale up for large events. Rendering crowds is a research area still though …. but we’ll have to tackle it.
Gareth Ellison: if i can excuse myself here a minute, i need to consume food
Math Gazov: bandwith will replace L& as exchange base
Razor Briggs: one more question will my avie be fresh if i connect to an open sim? or will i have all my stuff?
Gareth Ellison: apologies
Lem Skall: eat the bunny Gareth
Zany Lane: I heard a rumor the the Linux SL client was going to be in Debian or Fedora as an optional package. Is that true, you suppose?
Tracer Ping: just put a paypal donation link on any open source project
Lem Skall: btw, I don’t know how Gareth can hold that bunny and type at the same time
Morgaine Dinova: It’s already in Gentoo, in the secondlife overlay.
Tracer Ping: I’m with bill gates on this one
Math Gazov: me not
Zany Lane: Do you suppose this movement might actually foreshadow the 3D internet?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Razor: totally blank
Ina Centaur: / “3d internet” — define
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, for sure, Zany 🙂
Gareth Ellison: i return, and do not upset my bunny
Zany Lane: SL might be to netscape as netscape was to gopher
Lamont Helvetic: umm.. it is a requirement, teh 3d internet can’t be the property of a single company
Ina Centaur: / i think when people do serious research, they’d rather browser it than have a bunch of funky av distractions..
Math Gazov: imagine every site as an SL sim Ina
Alpha Auer: Zany: That is what i was thining too
Sean18 McCarey: 3d will no doubt become a part of the internet just like video is now
Razor Briggs: o ok cus im reading in on it im new to all this but im REALLY interested in gettin in on this
Math Gazov: open and different
jesz Murakami: again
Morgaine Dinova: Lem: Gareth holds the bunny, and the bunny does the typing 🙂
Ina Centaur: / reminds me of the Flash revolution, math ;-P
Gareth Ellison: if 3D can be abstracted then everything else can run at lower layers of abstraction
Sean18 McCarey: web pages as they are are still by far more effecient for much of what the web does
Zany Lane: I would imagine that 3D virtual web sites could be as different from netscape as netscape was different from gopher.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ina: old article:
Gareth Ellison: if i visit amazon, then i may browse 2D text
Math Gazov: not if you count inmersion Sean
Gareth Ellison: or i may look in 3D at the products
Sean18 McCarey: 3d customer service replacing simple chat
Lem Skall: jesz just made a good point: how much trust do you have in an av that holds a bunny, and I added, what gender is the bunny?
Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn is quite shameless :-))))))
Morgaine Dinova giggles
Gareth Ellison: the bunny is trustworthy
Gareth Ellison: leave him out of this!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, that’s me 😉
Lamont Helvetic: some people have too much interest in a bunny’s genitals
Scope Cleaver: Is that the elusive white rabbit everyone was looking for 🙂
Gareth Ellison: enough about the bunny
Ina Centaur: ew
Lem Skall: oh, it’s a pink bow so must be female
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Lem
Morgaine Dinova: Oh, follow the while rabbit!
Zany Lane: Where do you see this going in the next 6 months short term, Gareth?
Zany Lane: Not the bunny, osgrid
Gareth Ellison: Zany – i see the codebase becoming highly stable and feature-complete
Gareth Ellison: i see the bunny eating a few carrots and hopping around
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Math Gazov: 🙂
Alpha Auer: 🙂
Zany Lane: Is it conceivable to consider teleporting from the main grid to osgrid and back?
Scope Cleaver: Did you invite people at LL to work on your code on their free time? 🙂
Math Gazov: depends on LL I think
Gareth Ellison: 2 approaches, 1 legal and 1 illegal
Lem Skall: when will it be, let’s say “commercial” for lack of a better word? so when do you think it will really have an impact as a VW?
Zany Lane: Lets just think legal
Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: how come that your rate of progress is severals orders of magnitude faster than LL’s, it seems? 🙂
Gareth Ellison: legal option is to have LL implement 3rd-party interfaces
Math Gazov: never Zane!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Morgaine 🙂
Gareth Ellison: illegal option is to use SLProxy and blatantly violate TOS
Zany Lane: I’m not ready to be banned (yet)
Math Gazov: freedom is legal???
Gareth Ellison: i have asked one of the lindens to allow a test on that
Gareth Ellison: thus far no response
Lamont Helvetic: so.. would there be the potential for a sim, with customizable avatars, to run independent of teh grid? for a single company to use for meetings?
Gareth Ellison: yes
Zany Lane: Otherwise, you just give a -loginuri argument to the client??
Math Gazov: I think reverse engineering is more efficient morgaine
Gareth Ellison: right now you can do that
Ina Centaur: lamont, i think running a sim separate from the main grid is already possible
Gwyneth Llewelyn: from LL, you mean?
Morgaine Dinova: Well, items we develop in SL belong to us, or at least don’t belong to LL. But avatars would be a grey area — best to avoid trouble and create new ones.
Ina Centaur: but that’s boring. and you don’t need SL for that.. there are plenty of other 3d worlds to use for the nonconnected version
Afn Bade: is the protocal for the generic metaverse published yet?
Gareth Ellison: afn: an out of date version on my personal webserver
Ina Centaur: SL obtained their avatars from Poser 2, iirc
Gareth Ellison: correct typos
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye Ina 🙂
Sean18 McCarey: items are not transferable from LL unless LL allows them
Gareth Ellison: as for exporting – sadly, TOS disallows it
Gareth Ellison: it’s trivial to do, but against the rules
Morgaine Dinova: If they *belong* to us (as LL’s advertising/FAQs say), then they can hardly withhold them from us.
Zany Lane: Do you see any commercialization of sims on osgrid with sim owners selling land?
Gareth Ellison: Morgaine: it’s tricky, they can forbid use of their servers any way they want
Afn Bade: link for the generic protocol did not work
Lamont Helvetic: thsi seems to be what copybot was made for.. if it is yours, take it with you.
Sean18 McCarey: belong to you for the exclusive use on SL
Gareth Ellison: Zany: yes, it’ll happen
Chase Marellan: The intellectual property belongs to us. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to recreate it somewhere else.
Gareth Ellison: copybot is exactly what i started to ponder using for this purpose
Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: they can’t forbid the use of our clients though.
Sean18 McCarey: how do you get copybot
Gareth Ellison: run a copybot on the osgrid server and do not allow it to leak
Gareth Ellison: for obvious reasons
Zany Lane: Does opensim keep up with the client updates from LL?
Gareth Ellison: ensure it acts only on consent from the user
Gareth Ellison: Zany: yes
Gareth Ellison: my bot was called ExportBot
Gareth Ellison: due to PR concerns and the TOS the project was dropped
Zany Lane: Where are the gotchas in opensim?
Lem Skall: does LL have any plans to implement a way to download our objects off the grid? so we can upload them into something like OSgrid?
Gareth Ellison: Lem: no
Gareth Ellison: at least not public
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not public
Gareth Ellison: Zany:
Afn Bade: intellectual property is only good if you can enforce it, as anyone can develop content, the value of IP becomes meaningless…. except for a small percentage of IP
Lem Skall: at least they haven’t said they will never do it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Lem
Gareth Ellison: no, but not said they will either
Gareth Ellison: and i have a feeling they won’t
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact, they have sort of planned to allow people to dump all their content in a private island,
Gareth Ellison: don’t want to lose all their customers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to make backups
Lem Skall: they should, otherwise it is not validating of those objects being our IP
Gareth Ellison: there’s various options for backing up stuff
Gareth Ellison: but TOS forbids many
Lem Skall: but still within the SL grid
Morgaine Dinova: Lem: they have said that they are not willing to enter an arms race with open-source developers. However, they haven’t said that they won’t start doing nasty things with lawyers.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm Gareth, they won’t lose customers “yet”… I mean… over 90% of the people want to go where the BIG content is.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Morgaine
Math Gazov: the ONLy great exclusive capital SL has is the stored content
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s exactly their attitude!
Gareth Ellison: they will lose customers if the content can be relocated
Math Gazov: content won´t leak out easily from here
Ina Centaur: @math… also 8+ million users
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, Gareth, yes, if we’re talking about an OSgrid with 10k servers and over 97% uptime
Gareth Ellison: it would be trivial to move lots of it, but sadly cannot be supported due to legal reasons
Lem Skall: then we don’t really, legally, OWN those objects and that stands against all the hype
Afn Bade: The attraction of SL is other people… events were people show up 🙂
Gareth Ellison: any content copying must be done manually
Math Gazov: 8 million unstable and discontent users Ina
Gareth Ellison: that’s legal
Gareth Ellison: but automated copying isn’t
Zany Lane: So, in reality, this is more like opening up the wild west a bit and the rules and roles will probably be changing over the next year or so.
Flyingroc Chung: 97% uptime is over 10 days downtime in a year
Math Gazov: and users aware of other free chioces if they appear
Gareth Ellison: regarding downtime – with OSGrid once stable i have planned to have downtime one day per week or one day per fortnight for updates
Afn Bade: OVer time open source solutions will win over closed source
Gareth Ellison: this is i feel much more fair than SL’s sudden downtime
Morgaine Dinova: Well they’ll be taken to task for saying that community-created content belongs to their creators, if they actually prevent creaters from taking it. “It’s yours but I won’t let you have it” is indefensible.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. a roadmap?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, btw, are there milestones for OSgrid?
Gareth Ellison: none, yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.
Gareth Ellison: it’s still in the early stages
Zany Lane: Arent there some 0.4, 0.4, 0.5 goals in the wiki, Gareth
Ina Centaur: @math… there really is no other 3d mmorg that has the freedom of SL.. and that’s one difficulty in code of SL, that it basically allows you to do anything.
Gareth Ellison: that’s opensim
Lem Skall: Gwyn, are you kidding, it’s an OS project
Lem Skall: not a business
Gareth Ellison: there’s an opensim roadmap
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Lem
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the best OS projects *do* have milestones 😉
Gareth Ellison: OSGrid is just an installation of opensim and OGS
Gwyneth Llewelyn: even some of the worst… hehe
Afn Bade: the best OS products work lol
Ina Centaur: yes, when would it be possible to own a sim without paying for the setup price equiv to buying a computer or two..
Morgaine Dinova: OSGrid is to OpenSim, as efnet is to ircd.
Lem Skall: in my experience they have milestones only they are pseudo-run by companies like eclipse and IBM
Zany Lane: I think Gareth said today.
Afn Bade: will there be any support for AI for the OS grid?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, yes, Lem …. like Mozilla… or MySQL… you’re right on there 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Afn, you can develop it if you wish 🙂
Math Gazov: AIs will be born FROM open grids
Ina Centaur: AI support could come from externally
Ina Centaur: i.e. similar http_request
Morgaine Dinova: Well not doubt USAF will be implementing Skynet on it … 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahah Morgaine!
Gwyneth Llewelyn laughs
Lem Skall: what happened to Gareth?
Scope Cleaver: Mmmm Skynet
Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: why are you laughing? ;-))))
Scope Cleaver: Tara! 🙂 Hi
Math Gazov: think he crashed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, tara5 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that our host crashed…
Lem Skall: hi tara and ty
Afn Bade: It would be nice if there was some explict protocol for AI. so you could turn AI off if you want on the grid.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Afn,
Zany Lane: This opensim thing sounds very interesting.
Razor Briggs: can someone help me with the OpenSim program
Ina Centaur: afn, what *sort* of ai? o_O
Math Gazov: maybe LL boicot 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the cool thing is that you can implement it if you wish
Lem Skall: tara, don’t go!
Lem Skall: lol
Morgaine Dinova: Hey, you’ve got to have AI before you can turn it off
Scope Cleaver: I agree Morg
Zany Lane: I think Gareth said go to irc.efnet.net to the #opensim chat channel for help
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Ina Centaur: … ai=artificial intelligence or another tla?
Scope Cleaver: in fact you could argue it’s no true AI untill you *can’t* turn it off
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Lem Skall: wb Gareth
Morgaine Dinova: Scope: hahahah — there’s some truth in that 🙂
Tara5 Oh: not going just thought I should have my own seat!
Gareth Ellison: apologies, crappy DSL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Gareth is back!
Ina Centaur: … why would you need ai to run a sim? o_O
Gareth Ellison: AI for running a sim?
Zany Lane: Hide the beer, Gareth is back.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ina, to allow avatars that are pseudo.intelligent and shoot at you 😉
Scope Cleaver: ONce you get AI up ask it to fix the grid plz
Gareth Ellison: ah, NPCs
Math Gazov: a sim with AI would be alive, no need to “run” it
Morgaine Dinova: The bunny will get tipsy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Gareth Ellison: just use a bot
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, a bot.
Boshemia Vieria: to play God…
Ina Centaur: right, so the bot doesn’t necessarily ahve to be hardcoded into sim software
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Funny how SL, deep down, looks like IRC 🙂
Ina Centaur: you could just port it out via http or xml/rpc
Flyingroc Chung: Does OSGrid require MySQL, or can it use a different DB backend?
Gareth Ellison: actually, that is one feature i pondered
Gareth Ellison: there’s 4 different DB backends
Ina Centaur: yes, s.a. Oracle
Scope Cleaver: Which of them scales best?
Gareth Ellison: MySQL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it was once 🙂 )
Lamont Helvetic: hmm… what is teh SL equiv of DCC?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: is Oracle free for Linux? 😉
Gareth Ellison: i doubt it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe it used to be… for a short while
Morgaine Dinova: It used to be free, I very much doubt that’s changed
Gareth Ellison: last i checked it was commercial
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Morgaine, I think people were appalled at how slow Oracle was ;9
Morgaine Dinova: It’s always been commercial, but the free Linux version was a marketting hook.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and you know how Oracle is so pesky when they get ‘compared’ 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Flyingroc Chung: Oracle used to have very high latency
Ina Centaur: google uses oracle iirc 😉
Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: hahahaha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do, Ina? Hmm 🙂
Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear
Gareth Ellison: could i ask if anyone has on-topic questions?
Ina Centaur: oracle vs ms sql vs mysql… oracle wins
Zany Lane: Thank you very much, Gareth. This has been very helpful and I will definitely look into osgrid.
Razor Briggs: ya how do you use OpenSim lolol
Tara5 Oh: Oracle not free for linux can download install and run it but need to pay to license it
Gareth Ellison: www.openmv.org
Gareth Ellison: read the wiki for instructions
Morgaine Dinova: Well Orcale ban publication of comparative results for Oracle … so yeah, wouldn’t surprise me if they’re dreadful.
Ina Centaur: yes, oracle is *not* open source
Razor Briggs: i am doesnt make sence to me
Lamont Helvetic: is there an “opensim for dummies” page?
Ina Centaur: … just like how the stable and upbeat stuff tends to not be o_O
Lem Skall: how well is the architecture of OSgrid described on the website?
Gareth Ellison: if anyone wants to discuss technical details come on IRC or email me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Razor:
Gareth Ellison: the website needs fleshing out a lot
Gareth Ellison: but i’m always willing to answer questions via email or over IRC
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Gareth, it would be nice to give the -loginuri URL…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
Math Gazov: Gareth, why don’t you set a blog?
Ina Centaur: @gareth, re: $10/month dedicated server?
Gareth Ellison: set a home sim
Gareth Ellison: if you have an account, go to the site and edit your OGS profile
Gareth Ellison: then pass that -loginuri and explore
Ina Centaur: home sim would still not be $10/month… unless you live in idaho and have super cheap electricity bills o_O
Lem Skall: we do need to open a new accout, right? can’t use an SL av
Gareth Ellison: yes
Gareth Ellison: register an account on the site
Gareth Ellison: LL haven’t opened their user database to us 😉
Quanta Torok: For those of us without technical skills, does your project accept financial donations?
Gareth Ellison: i will have to look into paypal donate buttons etc
Flyingroc Chung: Are yo hiring?
Gareth Ellison: any funds for donations would have to go to the open metaverse foundation
Morgaine Dinova: Ohio Genealogical Society must be the wrong OGS … 😉
Gareth Ellison: the board for the OMF are still not finalised
Ina Centaur: is the open metaverse foundation a registered nonprofit?
Gareth Ellison: they’re still seting up some of the financial and legal things
Ina Centaur: as would the omaho genealogical society ;-P
Ina Centaur: *omaha >.<
Razor Briggs: ok whats the irc?
Ina Centaur: efnet
Gareth Ellison: efnet #opensim
Gareth Ellison: once the OMF board is finalised i’ll ask them about donations
Gareth Ellison: thanks for the reminder 🙂
Razor Briggs: lmao theres noone talking on the irc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they’re all on OSgrid, Razor 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gareth Ellison: what’s your nick razor?
Razor Briggs: MUAHAHAHAH!!!!
Ina Centaur: lol
Gareth Ellison: at times the channel is idle
Ina Centaur *poofs
Gareth Ellison: yeah
Razor Briggs: johnpablo
Razor Briggs: onirc?
Razor Briggs: you said hi to me
Razor Briggs: lmao
Gareth Ellison: well, i believe this talk has covered all that’s reasonable to cover – any detailed queries please direct to email or IRC
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gareth Ellison: [email protected]
Lem Skall: Gareth, is Nymphomaniacs Paradise another opensl related group?
Gareth Ellison: i’ll be disconnecting from LL’s grid before this bunny claws my eyes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I hope you’ll do more ‘promotion events’ for OSgrid!
Math Gazov: anyone wants a transcription of the meet? please IM me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you very much for doing this, Gareth
Lem Skall: yes, ty Gareth
Gareth Ellison: lem: that’s a nudge nudge wink wink group
Math Gazov: ty gareth
Gareth Ellison: a friend invited me into it
Lem Skall: 🙂 must be a good friend
Lamont Helvetic: hey, teh nudge nudge, and casinos, have vested interest in opensim
Quanta Torok: Thank you Gareth!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hhe Lamont, indeed
Math Gazov: we could have regular meets about this
Razor Briggs: [email protected]!T
Razor Briggs: sorry XD
Math Gazov: to know what’s going on
Gareth Ellison: ok, in all seriousness – i will be disconnecting now to do some work
Gareth Ellison: i might organised a meet on OSGrid next time 🙂
Gareth Ellison: oh, search groups for OSGrid and join
Gareth Ellison: if i do organise any meets i’ll announce them there
Razor Briggs: im in lmao
jesz Murakami: bye been intersting!!
Gareth Ellison: thanks for a great discussion and good night
Lem Skall: bte all, I’ll take off too
Flyingroc Chung: um, how to I log on there agin?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: use -loginuri
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mind you, their login server is down 😉
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Flyingroc Chung: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well FR, you have to understand that OSgrid and Deep Grid,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: are about at the same level as LL was in 2001.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It works.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It doesn’t work flawlessly:)
Dnate Mars: yes, because LL has gotten it to be so flawless right now too 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, Dnate 😀
Flyingroc Chung: so, hm
Flyingroc Chung: I thin I better start getting better at C#
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Flyingroc Chung: Ineed it for my new job anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehehehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: also, opensim runs on .NET 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so your hmm new employers will appreciate it 😀
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Flyingroc Chung: last I looked though, libsl was a mess
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Flyingroc Chung: granted, that was a whle ago
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can’t comment, I never managed to get it working
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, same here actually
Dnate Mars: .NET, ugh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Dnate
Scope Cleaver: Take care everyone, nice meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, it runs on Mono too,
Flyingroc Chung: .NET isnt too bad
Gwyneth Llewelyn: allegedly 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Scope :))